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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House The Trump Presidency

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Author Topic:   The Trump Presidency
Theodoric
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Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 301 of 4573 (798834)
02-05-2017 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by marc9000
02-05-2017 7:22 PM


Re: Castro
Well you know nothing about the subject. It is best to do at least basic research before making comments like that.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(6)
Message 302 of 4573 (798886)
02-06-2017 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 290 by marc9000
02-05-2017 2:58 PM


Re: GOP votes to allow dumping of mining debris in streams
marc9000 writes:
But this is a great example of why Trump worries so many. The large increase in the national debt as a percentage of GDP during the Obama years (continuing a trend begun during the Bush administration) was made necessary by the bailouts, stimulus programs and assistance programs put in place after the financial collapse, which occurred because of Republican rollbacks of Glass-Steagal regulations during the Bush years, and which was the worst recession since the Great Depression.
I don't think financial collapses happen because of a lessening of the size and scope of government,...
You would have done well to look up Glass-Steagal before replying. The 2008 financial collapse did not occur because rolling back Glass-Steagal reduced the size and scope of government. It happened because Glass-Steagal placed reserve requirements on banks (it did other things, too) to ensure the stability of the financial system across good times and bad. When bad times came in the form of the mortgage security fraud the financial industry had insufficient reserves to shore itself up and had to be bailed out by the government.
...I think they happen because of real-economic events, like the 9/11 terrorist attacks,...
The 9/11 terrorist attacks were not economic events, though naturally there were financial repercussions. There was no financial collapse associated with them.
...and like the collapse of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.
Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were both victims of the financial collapse and only minor perpetrators, which occurred because of speculation by banks on mortgage-backed securities. The ratings agencies were also culpable, giving mortgage backed securities far higher ratings than they merited, causing banks to calculate lower reserves than they actually needed, and to be able to justify those reserve levels to regulators.
The 2008 financial collapse made clear the necessity of regulations like Glass-Steagal, and so they were replaced by the Dodd-Frank regulations during the Obama years, but Trump wants to roll them back, exposing us to the risk of another financial collapse in the future.
I think it makes clear the necessity of FEWER environmental regulations that make the U.S....
I think you're confused. Glass-Steagal and Dodd-Frank are financial laws, not environmental.
It also makes clear the importance of not repeating the social engineering mistakes that led to the Fannie Mae / Freddie Mac disaster. No one contributed to it more than the ~Frank~ in Dodd-Frank, a big government liberal named Barney Frank.
I don't want to get into an argument concerning Frank's degree of culpability in the collapse of mortgage-backed security market, but will note that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were minor players. The big players were mortgage companies like Countrywide. As demand for mortgage-backed securities increased at banks, companies like Countrywide tried to fill the demand by writing low-doc and no-doc mortgages whose values tended to be overstated compared to the actual values.
His record's incredible all right, he's actually doing the things he campaigned on. Most of the turmoil, fear and confusion is just all the news media sensationalism.
Trump should be given credit for following through on campaign promises, but he's doing it incredibly clumsily. The turmoil he's causing in immigration and foreign affairs is not manufactured by the news media. It is very real.
I heard, and I saw economic promise in that bill. I'll never understand how you can think that imposed costs, with no product or service as a result, can be good economically.
If they don't dump slag in those rivers and streams, then they'll have to pay more to transport it somewhere else. They can't send it to outer space, so it will end up somewhere else on this planet. Or they can quit producing coal, resulting in higher energy prices for everyone. Common sense science, not emotion or the maintenance of environmentalists lifestyles, should make determinations about how much waste slag is too much in any particular area.
We have to live in this environment for a long time, so we'd better keep it clean. We breath the air fed by coal smoke, and we drink the water where big coal dumps it's waste. To be economically viable coal must develop cost-effective ways of cleaning their smoke and cleaning up their waste.
Way, way back? He was a private businessman until very recently, what did his activities have to do with you? As I said earlier, I didn't pay much attention to him because he couldn't fire me. Did he fire you?
Trump made the news regularly in the tri-state area where I grew up. He made the news when he discriminated against black tenants. He made the news when first he built casinos in Atlantic City and later abandoned them. I formed my opinions of Trump long, long ago, and nothing he's done since would cause me to change those opinions. He's arrogant, opinionated, uncaring, divisive, and cares about no one but himself.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Grammar.
Edited by Percy, : Clarify writing at end of 5th paragraph.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 303 of 4573 (798917)
02-06-2017 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 302 by Percy
02-06-2017 9:45 AM


Fake News
Donald Trump recently tweeted the following:
Any negative polls are fake news, just like the CNN, ABC, NBC polls in the election. Sorry, people want border security and extreme vetting.
Unbelievable!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

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Riggamortis
Member (Idle past 2389 days)
Posts: 167
From: Australia
Joined: 08-15-2016


(1)
Message 304 of 4573 (799017)
02-07-2017 1:44 AM


More utter stupidity from the Trump
Trump now saying that the media is under-reporting on terrorist attacks. Released a list of attacks that were supposedly not reported on/enough. It included the single gunman siege in Sydney, Aus. Perhaps it was not reported too heavily in the US(for obvious reasons) but I can assure you it was all over Australia's MSM bloody constantly. The news also mentioned a few other attacks that were both on the list and extensively covered.
I can't help but see it as a ploy to generate fear. It's a blatant lie and will only serve to create more fear of Muslims/terrorism. Watching the news, you ALREADY get the feeling the world is full of crazy terrorists and Trump is telling people there's more not being reported. Trying to gain public support for his immigration policies?

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 305 of 4573 (799070)
02-07-2017 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 304 by Riggamortis
02-07-2017 1:44 AM


Re: More utter stupidity from the Trump
Riggamortis writes:
It included the single gunman siege in Sydney, Aus. Perhaps it was not reported too heavily in the US...
At a minimum it was reported in both the New York Times and CNN, front page stuff. I see that even Breitbart news reported it.
Trump lies. We should have buttons made up.
--Percy

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 306 of 4573 (799072)
02-07-2017 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 305 by Percy
02-07-2017 8:08 AM


Re: More utter stupidity from the Trump
Percy writes:
Trump lies. We should have buttons made up.
Lying can be a very important asset to any President and so I don't fault Trump too much for lying. The problem is that il Donald is simply not bright enough to know when not to lie. He is simply totally out of touch with reality and lies stupidly. He lies when it is obvious that he will get caught lying.
That reduces any value to the Presidency in lying to the point where it becomes irrelevant and ineffective.
The buttons should say "Trump is too stupid to lie successfully."

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 307 of 4573 (799073)
02-07-2017 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 306 by jar
02-07-2017 8:30 AM


The Anti-Christ personified
As many of you may know, some of us Christians expect a charismatic yet dangerous global leader to arise---known as the anti-christ who will reign for 7 years. The first 3.5 years are prosperous and pro-Israel, while the latter 3.5 years are chaotic and destructive. Nevermind the rationality of this common belief. For the record, I hoped that it would never happen. Reading this article in The Atlantic, however, has caused me to re-evaluate.
The Mind Of Donald Trump
I strongly suggest that everyone read this article. It is sobering and fascinating---for in my mind it portends the actuality of a possible catastrophic world leader. So lets answer some questions.
1) Why would the Christian Right embrace such an authoritarian, disagreeable personality? The article explains why.
quote:
An American strand of authoritarianism may help explain why the thrice-married, foul-mouthed Donald Trump should prove to be so attractive to white Christian evangelicals. As Jerry Falwell Jr. told The New York Times in February, All the social issuestraditional family values, abortionare moot if isis blows up some of our cities or if the borders are not fortified. Rank-and-file evangelicals are trying to save the country, Falwell said. Being saved has a special resonance among evangelicalssaved from sin and damnation, of course, but also saved from the threats and impurities of a corrupt and dangerous world.(...)When my research associates and I once asked politically conservative Christians scoring high on authoritarianism to imagine what their life (and their world) might have been like had they never found religious faith, many described utter chaosfamilies torn apart, rampant infidelity and hate, cities on fire, the inner rings of hell. By contrast, equally devout politically liberal Christians who scored low on authoritarianism described a barren world depleted of all resources, joyless and bleak, like the arid surface of the moon. For authoritarian Christians, a strong faithlike a strong leadersaves them from chaos and tamps down fears and conflicts. Donald Trump is a savior, even if he preens and swears, and waffles on the issue of abortion.
Couple this observation with the observation of the far right Christians as well and you will understand why a believer such as myself is somewhat scared for the future of our country.
What Do Americans Believe About God, Salvation, and the Bible?.
Assume for a moment that an antichrist was a possibility. Pundits have traditionally ascribed the unholy trinity as me, myself & I and a narcissist such as Trump would hypothetically fit the bill. Couple that with the fact that this man carries the nuclear football around and you may even see atheists praying some day!
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 308 of 4573 (799074)
02-07-2017 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 305 by Percy
02-07-2017 8:08 AM


Re: More utter stupidity from the Trump
It gets worse. Several reports are unclear and some may even be false. Even some of those that refer to genuine incidents are dubious:
Malmo, Sweden, October 2016
What happened: A fire at a community centre that caused only minor damage was claimed by IS.
Did we cover it? No. But The Local Sweden did, adding that the claim by IS should be "taken with a pinch of salt".
BBC

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 309 of 4573 (799078)
02-07-2017 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 304 by Riggamortis
02-07-2017 1:44 AM


Re: More utter stupidity from the Trump
... It included the single gunman siege in Sydney, Aus. ...
It also included the single machete wielding terrorist at the Louvre in Paris with misinformation made up by FauxNoise (soon to be PhaqueNoise) Nutwerk, that hostages were taken and the museum was in lockdown.
The attack was in the store not the museum, he attacked a soldier and the injured soldier shot him. End.
Curiously, I'm surprised he didn't include the Bowling Green Massacre ... perhaps out of sensitivity for the victims ...
He is trying to drum up reasons to attack Iran, possibly with nuclear bombs, and truth be damned.
This is a very dangerous fool that doesn't know consequences or care as long as he can posture as a leader.
Sad.

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marc9000
Member
Posts: 1509
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 310 of 4573 (799082)
02-07-2017 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 302 by Percy
02-06-2017 9:45 AM


Re: GOP votes to allow dumping of mining debris in streams
You would have done well to look up Glass-Steagal before replying.
I did, and didn't have to read far before my above reply.
Dodd-Frank Versus Glass-Steagall: How Do They Compare?
quote:
The 849-page Dodd-Frank financial reform legislation, enacted four years ago in 2010, mandated 398 new rules; just 208 of those rules, or 52 percent, have been enacted and none of them seem to be reining in excesses on Wall Street.
Big government ideas, versus the realities of big government, are often VERY far apart. Glass-Steagal was 37 pages, Dodd-Frank is 849 pages. You imply that they're almost the same, they seem to be very different. This link also says;
quote:
The Glass-Steagall Act served this country incredibly well for 66 years until Wall Street lobbyists finally forced its repeal in 1999. It worked because of its simplicity — and its threat of five years of jail time for those who violated its key provisions.
I wonder if there's any jail time in Dodd-Frank. I'm not going to read it all to find out. I didn't spend hours poring over all this because I'm not all that interested. A partisan politician like Barney Frank can know all this stuff like the back of his hand, while an equally opposite partisan like......Paul Ryan, could know it every bit as well. And yet he and Frank would disagree on just about everything it says and does. But I quickly lose interest when I see "just 208 of those rules, or 52 percent, have been enacted and none of them seem to be reining in excesses on Wall Street." If I ask 10 politicians why, I get 10 different answers. That's why I'm not very interested in details of big government programs. They're always sloppy, when they don't have accountability like free markets.
The 9/11 terrorist attacks were not economic events, though naturally there were financial repercussions. There was no financial collapse associated with them.
There was no financial collapse, but there were small-business-destroying financial hardships. The majority of Americans, those on payrolls, didn't really see it. Businesses and the self employed, like myself, saw it. I own a commercial truck, and my insurance went up $1500 from 01 to 02. Stayed about the same in 03, then tapered off gradually until about 08. (I had no claims, this was nothing but insurance companies making up their 9/11 losses.) About $6000 is what 9/11 directly cost me. As a $30,000 per year guy, I absorbed it, and moved on, and it wasn't easy. As did others much larger than me. The bigger they are, the more employees they had, the more it cost them. Few people notice, business owners don't go out and parade in the streets like Trump protesters, they don't have time.
I think you're confused. Glass-Steagal and Dodd-Frank are financial laws, not environmental.
We have confusion all right, but not on my part. Environmental regulations CAUSE financial problems, which leads some to believe that new, sloppy, unapplied financial laws will solve problems that unreasonable environmental laws actually cause.
I don't want to get into an argument concerning Frank's degree of culpability in the collapse of mortgage-backed security market, but will note that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were minor players. The big players were mortgage companies like Countrywide. As demand for mortgage-backed securities increased at banks, companies like Countrywide tried to fill the demand by writing low-doc and no-doc mortgages whose values tended to be overstated compared to the actual values.
The biggest player of all was government pressure to loan money to people who experienced bankers know can't afford it.
Trump should be given credit for following through on campaign promises, but he's doing it incredibly clumsily. The turmoil he's causing in immigration and foreign affairs is not manufactured by the news media. It is very real.
We'll never agree on that, so we just have to leave it there. Did you see ABC World News Tonight with David Muir last night? This is supposed to be an objective, half hour summary of what happened in the world over the past 24 hours. As I've mentioned before, ever since Trumps Republican nomination, that "news" show has used its first 5 or 10 minutes as little more than an anti-Trump commercial. Last night, after about 7 minutes, part of their "report" consisted of playing a Saturday Night Live skit for about 30 seconds, featuring a new clown that portrays Sean Spicer. It's beyond amazing, are they actually too stupid to understand why Fox News beats them so badly in the ratings, or don't they care?
Trump made the news regularly in the tri-state area where I grew up........ He's arrogant, opinionated, uncaring, divisive, and cares about no one but himself.
ABC? The jealous David Muir? Or maybe Dan Rather in the past?
He knows the difference between productive and non-productive people, he knows something about deals and finances, and he's done a lot of charitable things that never get reported. Why would he move on from his $billion fortune to get all the hate and threats that he now gets, if he only cared about himself?
I'm now done with these past issues that we've discussed, Dodd-Frank, past environmentalism, and all that. I see you don't want this thread to go too far down associated political rabbit trails, and I respect that and don't have time for it anyway. But I hope this thread can stay open for the next 8 years , focusing mainly on Trump's day by day activities, and we'll see how it all goes.

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 311 of 4573 (799094)
02-07-2017 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 308 by PaulK
02-07-2017 8:49 AM


Even more stupid
BathrobeGate
Seriously. If there aren't worse things to complain about, don't bother.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 312 of 4573 (799097)
02-07-2017 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 307 by Phat
02-07-2017 8:46 AM


Re: The Anti-Christ personified
Phat writes:
The first 3.5 years are prosperous and pro-Israel, while the latter 3.5 years are chaotic and destructive.
Trump is doing it backwards.

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 313 of 4573 (799098)
02-07-2017 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 310 by marc9000
02-07-2017 10:17 AM


Re: GOP votes to allow dumping of mining debris in streams
marc9000 writes:
You would have done well to look up Glass-Steagal before replying.
I did,...
Glad to hear it. Your comments about the environment and about financial collapses not being associated with a reduction in regulation made it seem like you hadn't a clue, and you still seem to be having trouble grasping the significance of Glass-Steagal and Dodd-Frank. Both included the same goal of increasing reserve requirements to create a financial cushion for banks so they wouldn't collapse during hard times. Instead of reading the bills why don't you read the summaries at Wikipedia.
The 9/11 terrorist attacks were not economic events, though naturally there were financial repercussions. There was no financial collapse associated with them.
There was no financial collapse, but there were small-business-destroying financial hardships.
It didn't show up in the aggregate. Here's a graph of GDP/capita. Look at the difference between what happened after 9/11 (nothing) and what happened after the 2008 financial collapse (major downturn):
The point is that Glass-Steagal prevented things that had been typical of recessions (what they called panics because of things like runs on the banks, which we don't see any more because of financail regulations). But Republicans rolled back key provisions of Glass-Steagal, and within a few years we had the mortgage-security driven financial collapse. Dodd-Frank was put in it's place to prevent a recurrence, and now Republicans want to roll back Dodd-Frank. Not a good idea.
We have confusion all right, but not on my part. Environmental regulations CAUSE financial problems, which leads some to believe that new, sloppy, unapplied financial laws will solve problems that unreasonable environmental laws actually cause.
The topic was Glass-Steagal, Dodd-Frank and financial regulations that prevent financial collapse. While environmental regulations put financial burdens on industry, there's no connection to financial collapses. And we need the environment to be clean - we have to live here.
The biggest player of all was government pressure to loan money to people who experienced bankers know can't afford it.
Well, now you're just making things up. There was no government pressure. The driving force for the mortgage security frauds was demand by banks for more paper, and that demand came from clients who couldn't buy enough of this profitable supposedly low risk paper.
Trump should be given credit for following through on campaign promises, but he's doing it incredibly clumsily. The turmoil he's causing in immigration and foreign affairs is not manufactured by the news media. It is very real.
We'll never agree on that, so we just have to leave it there.
There's not much you can disagree about. Trump already has a record like no president before him. You can't deny the turmoil he's caused in immigration and foreign affairs, and now he's causing confusion in healthcare, too. Are they going to kill Obamacare or replace it. Whatever they do, are they going to do it now, later this year, or next year? The sign up period for the next year is now - what are people supposed to do?
He knows the difference between productive and non-productive people, he knows something about deals and finances, and he's done a lot of charitable things that never get reported.
And you know this how? Especially the "charitable things that never get reported."
Why would he move on from his $billion fortune to get all the hate and threats that he now gets, if he only cared about himself?
Uh, because of his narcissism?
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Typos.

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JonF
Member (Idle past 167 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(1)
Message 314 of 4573 (799113)
02-07-2017 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 313 by Percy
02-07-2017 11:12 AM


Re: GOP votes to allow dumping of mining debris in streams
The biggest player of all was government pressure to loan money to people who experienced bankers know can't afford it.
Well, now you're just making things up. There was no government pressure. The driving force for the mortgage security frauds was demand by banks for more paper, and that demand came from clients who couldn't buy enough of this profitable supposedly low risk paper.
He's probably referring to the silly right-wing fantasy that the Community Reinvestment Act caused the crash by forcing lenders to loan to low-income (hence unqualified) people.
Approximately 6% of the subprime loans that caused the crisis were due to the CRA.
Low-income loans didn't cause the financial crisis
Edited by JonF, : No reason given.

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marc9000
Member
Posts: 1509
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 315 of 4573 (799162)
02-07-2017 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 314 by JonF
02-07-2017 12:25 PM


Re: GOP votes to allow dumping of mining debris in streams
He's probably referring to the silly right-wing fantasy that the Community Reinvestment Act caused the crash by forcing lenders to loan to low-income (hence unqualified) people.
You win a cookie. I figured at least one of you would try to rescue him from that one. What would you liberals do without each other? But you didn't disagree with him that I was "making things up" did you?
Community Reinvestment Act - Wikipedia
But as this link shows, everything was done perfectly, wasn't it?
quote:
The law, however, emphasizes that an institution's CRA activities should be undertaken in a safe and sound manner, and does not require institutions to make high-risk loans that may bring losses to the institution.[3][4] An institution's CRA compliance record is taken into account by the banking regulatory agencies when the institution seeks to expand through merger, acquisition or branching. The law does not mandate any other penalties for non-compliance with the CRA.
Now, let's look at how swell that all went;
The Clinton-Era Roots of the Financial Crisis
quote:
The Clinton administration lost the battle to use pensions to fund low-income housing, but it succeeded in winning the war by drafting Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and the commercial banking system into the affordable-housing effort. It did so by exploiting a minor provision in a 1977 housing bill, the Community Reinvestment Act, that simply required banks to meet local credit needs.
Exploiting? It's amazing how perfectly good government programs get "exploited" by someone, isn't it?
quote:
Bank regulators began to pressure banks to make subprime loans.
Pressure? I don't think the word "pressure" was anywhere to be found in the Community Reinvestment Act!
quote:
Guidelines became mandates as each bank was assigned a letter grade on CRA loans. Banks could not even open ATMs or branches, much less acquire another bank, without a passing gradeand getting a passing grade was no longer about meeting local credit needs. As then-Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan testified to Congress in 2008, the early stages of the subprime [mortgage] market . . . essentially emerged out of the CRA.
Effective in January 1993, the 1992 housing bill required Fannie and Freddie to make 30% of their mortgage purchases affordable-housing loans. The quota was raised to 40% in 1996, 42% in 1997, and in 2000 the Department of Housing and Urban Development ordered the quota raised to 50%. The Bush administration continued to raise the affordable-housing goals. Freddie and Fannie dutifully met those goals each and every year until the subprime crisis erupted. By 2008, when both government-sponsored enterprises collapsed, the quota had reached 56%. An internal Fannie document made public after the financial crisis (HUD Housing Goals, March 2003) clearly shows that by 2002 Fannie officials knew perfectly well that these quotas were promoting irresponsible policy: The challenge freaked out the business side of the house [Fannie] . . . the tenseness around meeting the goals meant that we . . . did deals at risks and prices we would not have otherwise done.
Approximately 6% of the subprime loans that caused the crisis were due to the CRA.
What percentages were caused by the early 1990's exploitation of this 1977 legislation? By guidelines becoming mandates? By quotas going from 30% to 40%, then 50% to 56%? Your students at Duke and Dartmouth must not have been interested in researching that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by JonF, posted 02-07-2017 12:25 PM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 316 by JonF, posted 02-07-2017 8:54 PM marc9000 has not replied
 Message 319 by Theodoric, posted 02-08-2017 10:55 AM marc9000 has not replied

  
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