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Member (Idle past 1425 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Climate Change Denier comes in from the cold: SCIENCE!!! | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dr Adequate Member (Idle past 305 days) Posts: 16113 Joined:
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The problem with this topic as always is that the science just isn't clear enough to prove anything. The guy in the video is very convinced that he's arrived at a scientific conclusion from his studies that proves there is global warming (he's using that term instead of the more equivocal "climate change" which is interesting in itself), and that human activity is the cause of it, and he sketches out the theories his study eliminated which leaves this conclusion. But while I'm sure he's sincere it's basically all just his own assertion, his own conclusions, and there's just no way for a person to assess whether his study really did cover all the possibilities, really did include all the relevant information, really did prove what he says. There are others who sound just as sincere and just as aware of all the variables, who disagree with him about such scientific basics. Well, you could look at the information yourself. You don't just have to listen to people saying "Yes it is", "No it isn't".
So there's global warming. Isn't Planet Earth subject to long-term cycles of warming and cooling according to current theory? It is, but what of it? As an argument, that's kind of like a Holocaust denier saying "But don't Jews die of natural causes according to current theory".
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Taq Member Posts: 10033 Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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Faith writes: The problem with this topic as always is that the science just isn't clear enough to prove anything. Which part of the science isn't clear enough? 1. CO2 is 30% above natural levels.2. Burning fossil fuels is the primary reason for the 30% increase. 3. CO2 is a greenhouse gas. 4. The greenhouse effect is real.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1425 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Hi Faith,
The problem with this topic as always is that the science just isn't clear enough to prove anything. ... Let me copy Message 303 here for you, the information there is fairly straightforward. Clicking on the link provided provides you with the activated screen for each of these graphs and their overlay for the final total of the data.
quote: Should be pretty self-explanatory. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
The problem with this topic as always is that the science just isn't clear enough to prove anything. I think you are on to something. The science will never be clear enough to convince enough folks in the United States to take action so that the need to take even small steps stops being a political question rather than a scientific one. Maybe when metro-Atlanta gets a beach... Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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foreveryoung Member (Idle past 603 days) Posts: 921 Joined: |
taq writes: Period??? Oh really? Trap means to never let it go. You cannot be serious that when co2 absorbs radiation, it keeps it forever?
How are we "imagining" the greenhouse effect? Adding more greenhouse gas to the atmosphere will trap more heat. Period.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
Trap means to never let it go. No, it does not.
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foreveryoung Member (Idle past 603 days) Posts: 921 Joined: |
what does trap mean to you?
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9140 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.3 |
A little basic science might help.
What is the greenhouse effect? | HowStuffWorks This argument of yours is a loser. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
what does trap mean to you? The phrase 'trap more heat' means to hold a greater quantity of heat energy at any given moment. The energy will still be able to escape, so it is not 'never let go', but there is more of it within the containment area of interest. Take a house, as an example. If I put the heater on, the heat energy in the house will go up. Heat energy will still leave through the walls, windows and roof etc. If I open a window, heat energy will escape more quickly. If I install insulation, more heat will be trapped. Heat will still escape the trap, but at a slower rate than before. Since the heater is still generating the same amount of heat energy, the overall heat energy in the house will go up.
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foreveryoung Member (Idle past 603 days) Posts: 921 Joined: |
You are talking about restricting convection of heat with your example.
With co2, it absorbs heat energy and then releases it. What evidence do you have to suggest the temporary entrapment of heat by co2 slows the release of heat into space?
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foreveryoung Member (Idle past 603 days) Posts: 921 Joined: |
I'm aware of everything already in that article. Some of it is incorrect however.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9140 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.3 |
Please enlighten us on what is incorrect.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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foreveryoung Member (Idle past 603 days) Posts: 921 Joined: |
Some of that released radiation makes it into space, and the rest of it ends up getting reflected back down to Earth when it hits certain things in the atmosphere, such as carbon dioxide, methane gas and water vapor -- the car windows.
Not all of it is reflected back down to earth. Some of it is absorbed again by nitrogen and oxygen via conduction. IOW, carbon dioxide molecules hit other molecules in the air before any radiation is emitted from them. You want more examples? Edited by foreveryoung, : No reason given.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
You are talking about restricting convection of heat with your example. Except with the window, it's actually mostly conduction.
With co2, it absorbs heat energy and then releases it. And with more carbon dioxide there is more heat energy absorbed.
What evidence do you have to suggest the temporary entrapment of heat by co2 slows the release of heat into space? That wasn't the claim I made. I simply stated that 'trapping heat' does not mean 'trapped forever'. I'm fairly sure the evidence you are asking for here has already been presented, and you have already rejected it. Is there much point in presenting it again? Here is something NASA wrote for all the good that it will do. The phenomena is called energy imbalance. Eventually all the heat the earth takes in, will radiate out, but it can, for periods of time, take in more heat that it radiates back out:
quote:
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Foreveryoung, do you believe that when carbon dioxide re-radiates that it does so only towards space? That is wrong. The direction is random. At least some heat is radiated towards earth effectively augmenting the incoming radiation. Yes an equilibrium is reached where outgoing equals incoming, but for all forms of heat transfer (convection, conduction, or radiation) increasing the outgoing rate requires increasing temperature of the source.
You are not thinking things through. This particular argument of yours has no legs at all. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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