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Author Topic:   Gay Marriage as an attack on Christianity
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1550 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 31 of 1484 (802119)
03-12-2017 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by jar
03-12-2017 9:22 AM


Re: False equivalence
Again, apparently we are not allowed to have our own beliefs, we are required to have yours.
Anyway, I looked up another of the businesses that refused to cater to a gay wedding, the florist in Washington, Baronelle Stutzman. She lost her case too of course and was fined $1000. I don't know where things stand at the moment.
The photograph in New Mexico also lost her case: N.M. Supreme Court: Photographers Can't Refuse Gay Wedding...... | News & Reporting | Christianity Today
I think there was another bakery in the same situation. Maybe I can find it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by jar, posted 03-12-2017 9:22 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 03-12-2017 9:37 AM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34120
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 32 of 1484 (802120)
03-12-2017 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Faith
03-12-2017 9:33 AM


Re: False equivalence
Faith writes:
Again, apparently we are not allowed to have our own beliefs, we are required to have yours.
Anyway, I looked up another of the businesses that refused to cater to a gay wedding, the florist in Washington, Baronelle Stutzman. She lost her case too of course and was fined $1000. I don't know where things stand at the moment.
The photograph in New Mexico also lost her case: Error | ChristianityToday.com
I think there was another bakery in the same situation. Maybe I can find it.
No one doubts that people who break anti-discrimination laws get sued and lose in court.
But the point Faith is that why they discriminated is not the issue.
There is no attack on Christianity.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Faith, posted 03-12-2017 9:33 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 03-12-2017 9:42 AM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1550 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 33 of 1484 (802121)
03-12-2017 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by jar
03-12-2017 9:37 AM


Logical La La Land
Logically you live in la-la land like most Leftists, and the irrationality and illogic of it all are maybe the hardest part of being attacked by anti-Christian laws. The denial, the silly word twisting.
Anyway, although there's lots of news out there that might be pursued on this thread, I can't find the other business I was looking for, which I think was also a bakery.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 03-12-2017 9:37 AM jar has replied

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 390 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 34 of 1484 (802122)
03-12-2017 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
03-12-2017 7:23 AM


Except for the fact that the punishment is mild compared to torture, beheading, being eaten by lions and buried alive, there is nothing in principle different between a Christian's being required to worship Caesar or Nebuchadnezzar and being required to do something that to the Christian conscience implies acceptance of anything else that God has absolutely forbidden, such as gay marriage.
Question: does it imply acceptance of things that God has forbidden to vote for a man who has consistently treated the seven deadly sins as a to-do list?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Faith, posted 03-12-2017 7:23 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Faith, posted 03-12-2017 9:50 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1550 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 35 of 1484 (802123)
03-12-2017 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Dr Adequate
03-12-2017 9:47 AM


No.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-12-2017 10:23 AM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34120
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 36 of 1484 (802124)
03-12-2017 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Faith
03-12-2017 9:42 AM


Re: Logical La La Land
Faith writes:
Logically you live in la-la land like most Leftists, and the irrationality and illogic of it all are maybe the hardest part of being attacked by anti-Christian laws.
The laws are not anti-Christian as you well know. And there are Chapters of Club Christian that support same-sex marriage, recognize same-sex marriages and even perform same-sex marriages.
Again Faith, reality simply shows you are wrong.
The Bible shows you are wrong.
Basic common courtesy shows you are wrong.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 390 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 37 of 1484 (802126)
03-12-2017 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Faith
03-12-2017 9:50 AM


No.
Why not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Faith, posted 03-12-2017 9:50 AM Faith has replied

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frako
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 38 of 1484 (802127)
03-12-2017 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Dr Adequate
03-12-2017 10:23 AM


Because faith is the ultimate authority on what god wants do to her special relationship with Jesus, she can even tell which laws are ceremonial and which are moral and apply to all.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.

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Modulous
Member (Idle past 91 days)
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 39 of 1484 (802128)
03-12-2017 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Dr Adequate
03-12-2017 10:23 AM


Why not?
Because voting someone into high office doesn't validate or legitimize their sin like baking a cake, taking photographs or arranging flowers does. Obv.

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Modulous
Member (Idle past 91 days)
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 40 of 1484 (802130)
03-12-2017 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
03-12-2017 7:23 AM


nothing in principle different between a Christian's being required to worship Caesar or Nebuchadnezzar and being required to do something that to the Christian conscience implies acceptance of anything else that God has absolutely forbidden, such as gay marriage.
Nobody is being forced to do this.
What they can't have from a Christian baker is a special order for a gay wedding because that puts the baker in the position of treating the wedding as legitimate, and nothing rrhain has to say about it makes one iota of difference to that fact.
Why does the Christian baker have to treat the wedding as legitimate by making a custom cake for people celebrating signing a contractual agreement with the government? Wedding cakes aren't even a sacrament that symbolises a holy matrimony in the eyes of God. Neither are weddings. It's not as if God is joining them together, it's not as if they are being forced to accept that God is joining them together.
...gay marriage a slap in God's face, which we will not participate in. Where there is a law requiring us to accept gay marriage we simply cannot obey it and must take the punishment.
If baking a cake is the same as accepting a gay marriage as a holy matrimony, you don't have to bake cakes. I have never baked a wedding cake, for instance. Baking wedding cakes is not mandatory.
The florist could of course design arrangements for them for any other kind of event. Same for a Christian photographer. Again, the photographer could take pictures for any other kind of party, just not a gay wedding.
How about a party celebrating the signing of a contract between two people of the same sex with the government formalising their relationship for tax/insurance/healthcare/childcare/housing/employment purposes?
Are you unaware that we were a Christian society up until very recently, which would never have dreamed of legalizing something as antichristian as "gay marriage?"
And now you are increasingly a post-Christian society. Even your fellow Christians are rejecting the notion that prohibiting two people from signing a contract is anything but motivated by animus cloaked by faux-righteousness.
Now that the west is regressing to paganism we have increasingly pagan laws which eagerly shove Christianity off the map
Rather, as your version of Christianity becomes less accepted, this has allowed laws you disagree with to get passed.
we have no choice but to obey God rather than man and take the consequences.
Why don't you make a martyr video about it?
Last news is that the owner of the business decided not to make any more wedding cakes. Is that punishment enough for you?
Not making cakes is not a punishment. It is a sensible thing to do if you cannot, in good conscience, do it. I don't work in the arms industry because I cannot, in good conscience do it. I do not work in the fossil fuel industry because I cannot, in good conscience do it. So if baking wedding cakes is no longer viable, changing your business model sounds like the sane response.
It's a shame they didn't do it of their own recognizance and instead had to be ordered to do it by the court system.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Faith, posted 03-12-2017 7:23 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9535
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 41 of 1484 (802134)
03-12-2017 12:46 PM


The deluded so-called Christians who won't bake cakes for homosexuals weddings are obviously wrong but it does irritate me that they can't simply say that they can't because the cook is not feeling too well, they've got too many orders, the oven is broken, whatever. Why make it a 'thing'? Do they actually want to feel martyred?
Similarly, why ask a right-wing fundamentalist jerk-off to bake you a cake if you're queer? Some people are just looking for a fight.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

Replies to this message:
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Modulous
Member (Idle past 91 days)
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 42 of 1484 (802136)
03-12-2017 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Tangle
03-12-2017 12:46 PM


Similarly, why ask a right-wing fundamentalist jerk-off to bake you a cake if you're queer?
How would you know they are fundamentalist jerk-offs?

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1550 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 43 of 1484 (802139)
03-12-2017 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Dr Adequate
03-12-2017 10:23 AM


Personal sin isn't the reason
Why not?
This really has nothing to do with the topic and I realize I made a mistake with Frako's Message 22 in the same way. None of this is about personal sins, it's about the ordinance of marriage given by God. It isn't about people being gay, it's about marriage and God's definition of it.
Trump's sins are greatly exaggerated by the Left, especially if you are comparing him to Hillary and Bill, and in a better world I'd take personal sins into account more than I think appropriate in this time of rampant sin, but for the most part personal sins are a person's own business -- except in certain circumstances such as applying for the position of pastor or elder in a church or wherever else high moral standards apply.; Again Trump's are greatly exaggerated.
Frako brought up the old irrelevancy of the OT's prohibition of mixing fabrics and I answered with the usual fact that it only applied to ancient Israel. Which is true but irrelevant to this topic, because disobeying any particular law isn't a reason to deny the person a wedding cake or any other kind of service.
I can think of only one exception: Remarriage after a divorce is a reason.And gay marriage. And that's because of the insult to God's ordinance of marriage, not the personal sin.

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 266 by Aussie, posted 03-17-2017 11:06 AM Faith has replied
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1550 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 44 of 1484 (802140)
03-12-2017 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Tangle
03-12-2017 12:46 PM


related issues
I'm sure if there is some way to tell in advance that the customer is asking for a wedding service you will have to refuse, the seller WOULD come up with an excuse.
Yes, sometimes the customer IS looking for a fight, wants to threaten a Christian business.
And maybe all businesses that deal in wedding services should put a fish on their door, as some businesses do anyway. Unfortunately that might be as much of a goad to the people looking for a fight as a reason for others to go elsewhere.
Also, what IS this arrogant insistence that a Christian is "wrong" about such a decision? You think they LIKE turning people away? I can assure you they do not. It was kind of an agony for the Oregon bakery couple who don't have an anti-gay bone in their bodies. For them and the others it's strictly a matter of obedience to God.
One more thing. It should be mentioned that Muslim bakeries are either not targeted for wedding cakes by gay couples, or turn them away without being sued. They will not make a wedding cake for gays either, so why are they exempt from the consequences of discriminating against them?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Tangle, posted 03-12-2017 12:46 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1550 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 45 of 1484 (802141)
03-12-2017 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Modulous
03-12-2017 12:32 PM


I have such a headache after being taken on the ride through your bumpy logic I think I'm going to have to lie down.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Modulous, posted 03-12-2017 12:32 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
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