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Author Topic:   Gay Marriage as an attack on Christianity
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 301 of 1484 (802559)
03-17-2017 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by Faith
03-17-2017 4:11 PM


Re: Biblical sources of the marriage ordinance
Which is a warning not to unite with prostitutes, because sexual union creates one flesh, which is marriage.
Oh really? So now a new definition of marriage based on who you have sex with? How does this help your argument?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by Faith, posted 03-17-2017 4:11 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 304 by Faith, posted 03-17-2017 4:29 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 302 of 1484 (802560)
03-17-2017 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by LamarkNewAge
03-17-2017 2:09 PM


Re: ROMANS 6 "LAW" verses not helping Faith's argument so she left out of quote
It was the passage in 1 Corinthians, not Romans, and I didn't quote it because it isn't about unbelievers, which is the context here. It's about Christian liberty, and Paul is referring back to what he'd said about having liberty as a Christian to eat meats sacrificed to idols, so long as a brother is not offended in doing so. Considering that fornication is identified as a sin to keep a person from the kingdom of God, however we are to understand him it can't be as license to visit prostitutes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by LamarkNewAge, posted 03-17-2017 2:09 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 309 by LamarkNewAge, posted 03-17-2017 8:22 PM Faith has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(6)
Message 303 of 1484 (802561)
03-17-2017 4:29 PM


Moose writes:
In support of the (for lack of a better phrase) "don't go too far when promoting pro-LGBT policy" theme.
It really is disheartening. It's like anytime a gay person acts they have a duty to 'promote pro-LGBT policy' and they shouldn't defend the rights they have won in their battles because it might be irritating, it might turn people off, it might undermine some grand strategy. Let's look at Sweet Cakes by Melissa case:
In January 2013 Rachel and her mother attended a cake tasting at the shop after having spoken and arranged it at an Expo. When asked the name of the bride and groom by Aaron, they were corrected that it was two brides and they were refused service. Rachel began to cry, feeling most that her mother, Cheryl had been humiliated by the experience. She felt distraught because her mother had until recently been homophobic and was anxious she was ashamed of her. Rachel kept saying sorry to her mother.
They left, but a short while later, Cheryl returned to the cake shop and spoke to Aaron - attempting to appeal to his better nature by saying she had once felt that way. Aaron responded with Leviticus quotes and telling Cheryl that her children were abominations. When Cheryl returned to Rachel she was still utterly distraught and in tears.
Rachel, raised a southern Baptist felt that the denial of service was because God had made a mistake in creating her, that she was not meant to exist, that she was not meant to be loved or to love others, that she was meant to be denied a family, that she would be denied entry into heaven.
quote:
I was beyond upset. I just wanted everybody to leave me alone. I couldn't face looking at my mom, I didn't even know if I could go through with getting married anymore.
Once home, Rachel retired to her bedroom and continued to cry. Cheryl told Rachel's fiancee, Laurel who was 'flabbergasted', angry and upset. She moved towards feeling shame and as a Catholic felt the shopkeeper was saying that she was not a creature of God, unworthy of life and love. She felt guilty and having asked Rachel to marry her so that she would be put in this position. She worried that Cheryl's opinion might swing back against acceptance of her sexual orientation.
Laurel tried to comfort Rachel but was pushed away, and she became angry and yelled some before leaving the room. Rachel continued to cry.
One of Rachel and Laurel's daughter came home, upset at something that happened at school and became distraught that Rachel was unavailable. This heightened Laurel's anger and sadness and she began to cry.
Laurel filled out some reviews online warning other gay couples to avoid the shop. Within a few days she informed their wedding venue as they had recommended the cake shop.
quote:
This is twice in this wedding ceremony we have faced this kind of bigotry
She also filed a complaint with Department of Justice Consumer Complaints.
Rachel still suffered bouts of depression, questioning the legitimacy of her sexual orientation and whether she deserved to married. Laurel and Rachel began to argue due to the emotional stress. Rachel became distant and avoided family contact - vocally expressing she thought she might not be a good mother because she couldn't control her emotions. Even a week after the event she was 'less exuberant' about the prospect of the wedding.
Cheryl took over most of the continuing wedding planning because of Rachel's anxieties over further rejection. Laurel was ashamed that she couldn't protect Rachel from the pain, anxiety and self-loathing - and was fearful of the consequences to Rachel's mental health of another such incident.
Cherly went to Pastry Girl who asserted the same-sex wedding not be a problem.
Two weeks later, the DOJ contacted Sweet Cakes to inform them of the complaint and to ask for information from them. Aaron Klein shared it on Facebook saying 'this is what happens when you refuse gays a wedding cake', or words to that effect. It was picked up by local news. The posted complaint included Rachel and Laurel's names and address.
Laurel became distraught that her complaint had been published online and that it was now in the news and being publicly discussed. She grew anxious and cried. Both Rachel and Laurel were contacted by a Conservative Radio Show, they refused to comment. The pressure of the public eye was stressful. They were fearful their children would be caught in a media circus; That this would cause their adoption to be rescinded and they would lose them.
quote:
That fear was paramount to everything
The fear and intimidation began to have deleterious health effects, loss of sleep, headaches etc. This fear increased when a friend posted about the case on Facebook and mentioned they had children - taking the post down on request.
One week after this, protesters began to turn up at the cake shop. Neither Rachel nor Laurel were involved.
Family members of Rachel and Laurel heard about the situation through the media and family frictions flared up. Laurel's aunt, the centre of the family wealth, insisted Laurel drop the complaint, that she was not welcome on family property and that she would be shot if she set foot on it, including the overseas holdings. This crushed her - it effectively denied her access to her mother and grandmother.
Rachel's sister wrote a message to offending cake shop's owner to tell them she supported the cake shop's refusal to serve them, causing distress to Rachel.
4 months later they got married, not legally unfortunately. They had a cake.
2 months after this they filed a complaint to BOLI (Bureau of Labor and Industries).
A year after the initial refusal the couple got legally married a few days after the ban against same-sex marriage was struck down.
During this period the couple received hateful and threatening correspondence, causing fear and extreme psychological stresses of pain, anger feeling degraded.
Rachel and Laurel did not solicit media attention. They released a statement once.
quote:
This case is not about a wedding cake or a marriage. It is about a business' refusal to serve someone because of their sexual orientation...it was, and is, a denial of {Rachel} and {Laurel}'s freedom to participate equally...The denial of these freedoms to which all are entitled devalues the human condition of the individual, and in so doing, devalues the humanity of all of us.
...
The personal harm in being subjected to such separation is felt deeply and severely...this order does not punish {the cake shop} for their illegal conduct but rather, makes whole those subjected to the harm their conduct caused.
source
Clearly the main battle has not been won, as our allies are still ignorant as to the impact this bigoted behaviour can have on people's lives. This is why it must be fought. It can harm people. It can harm children. It can tear families apart, it often causes fear, sadness, despair, despondency, self-doubt, feelings of worthlessness and questioning the value of one's own identity.
Trivial? It irritates you to have to hear about it? One should shrug it off in service of some greater fight? Fuck you if you think that.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 308 by Tangle, posted 03-17-2017 7:35 PM Modulous has replied
 Message 313 by dwise1, posted 03-18-2017 5:56 AM Modulous has seen this message but not replied
 Message 316 by Faith, posted 03-18-2017 10:30 AM Modulous has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 304 of 1484 (802562)
03-17-2017 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 301 by NoNukes
03-17-2017 4:22 PM


Re: Biblical sources of the marriage ordinance
Oh catch me in a word problem as usual. Sorry, it wasn't meant as a definition of marriage. Uniting with a harlot is obviously not marriage. But it says a lot about the spiritual meaning of sex and its power in marriage.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by NoNukes, posted 03-17-2017 4:22 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 305 by NoNukes, posted 03-17-2017 7:02 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 305 of 1484 (802566)
03-17-2017 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 304 by Faith
03-17-2017 4:29 PM


Re: Biblical sources of the marriage ordinance
Oh catch me in a word problem as usual. Sorry, it wasn't meant as a definition of marriage. Uniting with a harlot is obviously not marriage.
So not just a word problem. Your current statement is a complete negation of your original post.
But it says a lot about the spiritual meaning of sex and its power in marriage.
You are welcome to make another attempt at explaining how that verse is even relevant.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by Faith, posted 03-17-2017 4:29 PM Faith has not replied

  
14174dm
Member (Idle past 1109 days)
Posts: 161
From: Cincinnati OH
Joined: 10-12-2015


Message 306 of 1484 (802567)
03-17-2017 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by Faith
03-17-2017 12:53 PM


Re: The Gospel and Acts don't mention homosexual issues
Romans 2:1
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.
Seems to me you are picking a favorite sin of others to judge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by Faith, posted 03-17-2017 12:53 PM Faith has not replied

  
14174dm
Member (Idle past 1109 days)
Posts: 161
From: Cincinnati OH
Joined: 10-12-2015


(1)
Message 307 of 1484 (802568)
03-17-2017 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by Faith
03-17-2017 1:05 PM


Re: Those who will not inherit the kingdom of God unless they repent
1Corinthians 6:9-11 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
So a Christian business has a tiny market. I find it difficult to believe that you can single out the covetous, the self-abusing, and the adulterers from your customers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by Faith, posted 03-17-2017 1:05 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 308 of 1484 (802569)
03-17-2017 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 303 by Modulous
03-17-2017 4:29 PM


Modulous writes:
Trivial?
Yes buying a cake is still trivial. You have a choice, it can be symbolic of the prejudice, discrimination and suffering inflicted on a minority, or it can be simply buying a cake.
One should shrug it off in service of some greater fight?
No, one should shrug it off and buy the cake next door from someone that isn't a bigoted idiot. Better, tell them to go fuck themselves and then go next door and spend twice the money on a massive cake with an inverted crucifix stuffed into the top.
Fuck you if you think that.
Well now, what are we supposed to do with that? This is a real problem, you're talking to people who are on your side. People who hate these bigots at least as much as you do. 'Feel me suffer or fuck off'. Not a chance.
Speaking for myself here, I've lived next door to two gays in very long-term relationship for 20 years, I consider them close friends and went to their marriage, I work with a gay guy everyday who's the funniest bloke I've ever met and my niece and god-daughter (sic) now has a male name. I chose to live in a city with the highest proportion of LGBT people in Europe - it's made for a fabulously diverse place with a unique culture. I don't recognise the anguish and suffering that you project as the norm. What I see is a confident and outgoing community that's making a difference in the world and I'm grateful for it. Just for a laugh, my local baker is a gay. Tragically, he's not a terribly good one.
So maybe this is unusual, but it's proof that gays needn't feel like victims anymore.
What I hear from you has a terrible resemblance to Faith's embittered martydom speeches. But her kind of primitive prejudice is an anachronism - maybe time to join the rest of us, ignore the shits and get on with a normal life?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by Modulous, posted 03-17-2017 4:29 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 311 by Minnemooseus, posted 03-18-2017 3:11 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 335 by Modulous, posted 03-18-2017 1:44 PM Tangle has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 309 of 1484 (802570)
03-17-2017 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 302 by Faith
03-17-2017 4:25 PM


Re: ROMANS 6 "LAW" verses not helping Faith's argument so she left out of quote
I meant to type I Correct 6 spell check won't let me type "1 Cor 6" GOT IT. Romans was a typo, dismiss post title. AnywCorrectr spell check is acting up need to keep post short. I think you should quote all of Paul's relevanti n c hapter 6 instead of dictating what he supposedly meant WHILE FAILING TO QUOTE HIS IMMEDIATE LINES ABOUT THE LAW.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by Faith, posted 03-17-2017 4:25 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 310 by Phat, posted 03-18-2017 12:50 AM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 310 of 1484 (802572)
03-18-2017 12:50 AM
Reply to: Message 309 by LamarkNewAge
03-17-2017 8:22 PM


Re: ROMANS 6 "LAW" verses not helping Faith's argument so she left out of quote
im quite sure there is a way to turn spellcheck off on that phone....

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 311 of 1484 (802573)
03-18-2017 3:11 AM
Reply to: Message 308 by Tangle
03-17-2017 7:35 PM


Alternative bakeries
No, one should shrug it off and buy the cake next door from someone that isn't a bigoted idiot. Better, tell them to go fuck themselves and then go next door and spend twice the money on a massive cake with an inverted crucifix stuffed into the top.
Klein v. Oregon Bureau of Labor and Industries - Wikipedia is the case Modulous is talking about. This happened in a suburb of Portland, OR, I'm pretty sure a liberal area where alternative bakeries were available (did Mod cite an alternative bakery?). Like I believe you alluded to, such is probably not likely the case in the deep south.
Moose

This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by Tangle, posted 03-17-2017 7:35 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 312 by Tangle, posted 03-18-2017 3:56 AM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied
 Message 336 by Modulous, posted 03-18-2017 1:50 PM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 312 of 1484 (802574)
03-18-2017 3:56 AM
Reply to: Message 311 by Minnemooseus
03-18-2017 3:11 AM


Re: Alternative bakeries
Minnemooseus writes:
Klein v. Oregon Bureau of Labor and Industries - Wikipedia is the case Modulous is talking about. This happened in a suburb of Portland, OR, I'm pretty sure a liberal area where alternative bakeries were available (did Mod cite an alternative bakery?). Like I believe you alluded to, such is probably not likely the case in the deep south.
I don't know much/anything about what happens in individual US states - except by reputation. It sounds like some parts of the South would be an impossible place for gays to live in.
I remember being asked by a religious idiot in Colarado what church I went to. A question impossible to imagine being a topic of conversation in the UK - in the circles I turn in at least. I laughed and said I was a born again pagan, she looked terrified and backed away.
I accept that some parts of your country have not developed the liberal consciousness of others so there's going to be a lot of very damaged lives at the extremes. There are a lot of individual battles to be won and people will take the routes that suit them. But just like some in the LGBT communities dislike being told how to do it by straights, some straights dislike being told how we should feel about what they do or how they go about it.
There's a bit of 'if you're not on side with everything we do, you're part of the problem'. That's an illiberal and error ridden position.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

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 Message 311 by Minnemooseus, posted 03-18-2017 3:11 AM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(1)
Message 313 of 1484 (802575)
03-18-2017 5:56 AM
Reply to: Message 303 by Modulous
03-17-2017 4:29 PM


One thing that is almost always lost in these issues is the story of what actually happened and how it impacted the lives of those involved. Thank you for bringing that to our attention.
As all of you have already heard far too many times, I am retired military so that is where I draw this bit of wisdom. But even in management issues in the civilian world, the Golden Rule is to resolve all problems at the lowest level possible. Failure to do so just results in far more trouble and turmoil for everybody as well as resulting in consequences that nobody can be happy with. But when one party adamantly refuses to allow any kind of resolution or to even agree to any kind of discussion (which could itself be a form of resolution), then that leaves the other party (most commonly the aggrieved party) to other recourse but to push it up the chain -- though as described that was not the intent of the aggrieved here. The thing is that once an official complaint is filed, then there is a legal obligation to resolve it and it's then out of the hands of the original parties.
Around 1991, I was personally involved in such a situation with Boy Scouts of America. There are 9 points to the Scout Law, but Boy Scouts of America, Inc, added three more including "reverent". And on the basis of that (and other spurious ideas), they have been actively engaged in religious discrimination for decades, in almost all cases completely against the principles of Scouting. And including on-line spying against members resulting in their termination.
Please accept this disclaimer that all my information is from the 1990's. Despite requests for information about any official changes since then, I have received none.
For example, there are the Randall twins. They just wanted to be involved in Cub Scouting, like any other kid. But unlike most, they thought about what they were swearing oaths to. Outside of a confused phone message from a pack leader (volunteer), the first indication of any problem the parents received was the official notification of expulsion from the local Boy Scouts of America, Inc, council. All attempts to talk with them ended with a "so sue us". Which the father did and won. So pending the appeal to the state Supreme Court the Randall twins were allowed to continue to participate in the program. As their Eagle Courts loomed large, Republican politicians (eg, the state attorney general) pushed the case into the state Supreme Court who ruled that BSA did indeed discriminate on religious grounds, but as a private organization it was no subject to the law (ie, the Unruh Act).
Two boys who just wanted to be Scouts. Ironically, the Scoutmaster who worked with them the most described them as the best examples of Scouts that he had ever worked with. Please note that some boys who did make Eagle had committed vile acts of property vandalism such that the other boys in the troop (my own elder son included) were completely turned off to Scouting because of their selection to that position.
When my own sons became involved, I researched all the officially published rules and regulations and bylaws and advancement guidelines that BSA made available (which were very greatly restricted during the Randall trial -- BSA didn't want you to know what their rules actually were, did they?) I found that even as an atheist I met the requirements of BSA membership. But then the Randall issue hit the news and I was left not knowing what was going on. So I went to the scouting forum on CompuServe. Well, it turned out that BSA had a spy there who collected all messages posted by everybody, including by who was only trying to find out what was going on.
Similarly, there was one Scouter, Jewish, who had posted a message cheering the Randall twins on for "sticking to their guns." Two BSA professionals in uniform (which says to me in "brown shirts") entered this Jewish individual's place of employment and started questioning him about his own personal religious beliefs, to which he replied that that was none of their damned business, whereupon they slapped him with his notice of expulsion. Sorry, but there's just something about that visual of two BSA brown-shirts assaulting a Jew in public.
In my own case, I was just trying to provide the Scouting program as BSA was expelling me. The officially recognized authority for whether I did my "duty to God" was my own minister. Twice in writing he certified that I do indeed do my "duty to God" in accordance with our religion (Unitarian-Universalism). Both times BSA chose to ignore him, as they ignored him each and every time I included his letters in the packages I submitted to them.
The point is that bigots are bigots. And even when they create rules to make themselves appear to be normal, they will still violate their own rules in order to continue to be bigots.
And normal people just want to live as normal people. And be treated as normal people. And when some bigots want to change that for not reason besides their own bigotry, then everybody should oppose them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by Modulous, posted 03-17-2017 4:29 PM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 315 by Theodoric, posted 03-18-2017 9:28 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 314 of 1484 (802581)
03-18-2017 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 231 by Diomedes
03-16-2017 1:02 PM


Re: FYI
What about this scenario: most supermarkets including the one near me create cakes that can be purchased from the shelf. i.e., it is a cake that has been baked (personally constructed) and is available for purchase.
A wedding cake is not something you'd find on a supermarket shelf. It is custom made for a particular occasion. Please refer to Message 213 for examples of wedding cakes.
Now: a gay couple comes into the supermarket, sees the cake on the shelf, and indicates it would be perfect for their impromptu wedding. They are about to take the cake when out of nowhere, a screaming Christian banshee comes out of the bakery telling them they are sinners and cannot purchase that cake since its usage in a gay wedding would be an abomination to the baker's god. And the baker snatches the cake from their hands.
I've many times here already said there is no problem with anything available in a bakery except a personal custom-made wedding cake. If such a concoction were to appear on a supermarket shelf, which isn't going to happen, or in a bakery display case, which isn't going to happen, there is no problem with gays buying it. No "screaming banshees" are going to come out of the walls and beat the customers to a pulp. {Here's an idea for a clever entrepreneur perhaps: come up with a design for a tiered decorated cake that could be sold off the shelf. No personal custom construction, just a cake that could be used for the impromptu wedding you have in mind. It would still be pretty expensive but nowhere near the custom creation. { Or go to a pagan bakery and get the full elaborate personalized expensive cake. That's still an option.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Diomedes, posted 03-16-2017 1:02 PM Diomedes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 322 by ringo, posted 03-18-2017 12:08 PM Faith has replied
 Message 371 by Rrhain, posted 03-19-2017 4:15 AM Faith has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(2)
Message 315 of 1484 (802582)
03-18-2017 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 313 by dwise1
03-18-2017 5:56 AM


I am an Eagle Scout. I received my Eagle award in 1979. I have a son that just started Cub Scouts this year. I am in a sense hiding my religious views. I have been a Den leader this year and have been asked to be the Cub Master in two years. I am just waiting for the situation to come up where I am asked my religious believes. The charter organization is a fairly conservative Covenant church so I am quite sure it will come up. My response is going to be that I follow all of the Oath and the Law. Belief in "God" is a very amorphous personal thing. If they persist I will let them expel me. I will not lie.
I

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 313 by dwise1, posted 03-18-2017 5:56 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
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