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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Gay Marriage as an attack on Christianity | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
LMA writes:
Huh?
the constant bringing up of meat in this thread
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
The Conservative Christian "understanding" of the Bible has nothing to do with the Bible - which is why you always run away from discussions of the Bible. YOUR understanding of how the Bible defines marriage is absolutely utterly and completely irrelevant. Conservative Christians know it forbids gay marriage and it doesn't matter in the slightest what YOU think about it. The Bible doesn't support your position.
Faith writes:
Of course it is. You're not fooling anybody but yourself.
THIS IS NOT ABOUT JUDGING PERSONAL SINS
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Faith writes: YOUR understanding of how the Bible defines marriage is absolutely utterly and completely irrelevant. Conservative Christians know it forbids gay marriage and it doesn't matter in the slightest what YOU think about it. The Conservative Christian "understanding" of the Bible has nothing to do with the Bible - which is why you always run away from discussions of the Bible. The Bible doesn't support your position.
THIS IS NOT ABOUT JUDGING PERSONAL SINS Of course it is. You're not fooling anybody but yourself. Every word you said there is false, illogical and weirdly twisted as a matter of fact, but it doesn't matter, what I said still stands: Your understanding is absolutely and completely irrelevant, it's the conservative Christian view, that is shared by all those who have so far come in conflict with the gay marriage ruling, along with millions of others, that defines the problem this thread is about.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9201 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2 |
Post the biblical definition of marriage. Please cite chapter and verse.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
Yes buying a cake is still trivial. Yes, obviously. Everybody agrees with this. Nobody gives a shit about fucking cake. This is not, however, about cake. Despite me saying, despite them saying it, despite the bureau of labour and industries saying it - you still ignore this fact. I can't do any more for you I'm afraid.
No, one should shrug it off and buy the cake next door from someone that isn't a bigoted idiot. You should become a psychiatrist: You should just cheer up and stop being depressed.You should calm down and stop being manic. You should chill out and stop having a panic account. Humans, of course, don't work like this. Most queers in most cases do shrug off the many many instances of bigotry directed at them. They have to in order to function. But sometimes it isn't so trivial. People are complicated, they exist in social groups, they have history and emotions and weddings are notoriously periods of heightened emotional states. So it doesn't matter how you think people 'should' react. You have to deal with how people, humans with emotions, feelings, histories, families... actually do react. Sometimes it is a cold fact of the matter that 'shrugging it off', as much as someone might want to be able to do so, isn't what happens. And just to say it again: They do, as a matter of fact, go and buy the damned cake elsewhere.
Fuck you if you think that. Well now, what are we supposed to do with that? Shrug it off? Or maybe realize I don't care what you do with it, because, you know - fuck you.
This is a real problem, you're talking to people who are on your side. No the problem is that you say you are, but you clearly aren't.
People who hate these bigots at least as much as you do. This has never been about hatred of bigots. As long as bigots provide us with equal access to services and treat as equally human with equal dignity, they can think whatever little bigoted nonsense they like.
So maybe this is unusual, but it's proof that gays needn't feel like victims anymore. Nobody 'needs' to feel like a victim. Further, your personal life experiences are not proof that people that grew up gay in Texas and moved to Oregon to escape prejudice weren't harmed by the Oregon cake shop.
What I hear from you has a terrible resemblance to Faith's embittered martydom speeches. And again, for effect: Fuck you.
But her kind of primitive prejudice is an anachronism - maybe time to join the rest of us Agreed - wouldn't it be nice if queerfolk had the equal access required to join the rest of you?
ignore the shits and get on with a normal life? Queerfolk that are alive are disproportionally better than straight folk at ignoring the shits. We've had inordinately more practice at it. But you know what has always been true? Ignoring everything all the time isn't the solution. Sometimes you have to confront it. Sometimes you have to say 'I will not accept being made to feel less than human, I will not accept my loved ones being hurt, I will not accept people breaking the law and souring our happy occasion'. Clearly you don't get it. I doubt there is much hope you will any time soon. In some way, I hope you don't get it - because it'll probably only happen as a result of an injustice being carried out against you or - more likely, a loved one. For what it's worth, if it did happen, I won't suggest you just shrug it off out of fear of 'maybe' harming the cause by irritating people should the media decide to publish the abridged details about it. Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
This happened in a suburb of Portland, OR, I'm pretty sure a liberal area where alternative bakeries were available (did Mod cite an alternative bakery?). I mentioned one. There were two named alternative bakeries in the case. There multiple others mentioned that were not named. They moved to Portland, OR from Texas to avoid this kind of nonsense. They used Sweet Cakes because:a) Their venue had recommended them b) Their caterers had recommended them c) They had a positive interaction at a wedding Expo where they started making the arrangements for a tasting. d) They had previously used them for a wedding cake and like it. They didn't anticipate the behaviour, nor did any of the people that recommended it - it came out of nowhere. Within a few days they had started making arrangements with other bakers (through Cheryl, the mother, since Rachel was too anxious of another rejection and Laurel was afraid another rejection would result in Rachel cancelling the wedding out of despair).
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
It is interesting to hear the whole story from the couple's side. I'd heard they were turned down very politely but if what they say is true it wasn't so polite. You might be confusing the case with the Masterpiece Cakeshop where the refusal was as polite as it can be given the circumstances. In the Sweetcakes case, I believe it was not disputed that the denial was 'impolite'.
However, I don't get why someone who had lived as a lesbian for so many years would be so nave as not to know there could be problems with setting up a wedding to her lesbian partner, or why it would have such a devastating emotional effect on her, especially since her own mother had been opposed to her relationship until recently. She moved to Portland from Texas because they know there could be problems. Rachel had already expressed reticence in getting married, but decided that since they had foster children, it would be ultimately for the best for the kids. They were not nave.
And correct me if I misread, but I gather this all happened before the SCOTUS ruling too? You are correct.
They ended up calling around and finding a bakery that wouldn't have a problem with a gay wedding. Shouldn't that have been done in the first place? They shouldn't have needed to.
As Moose pointed out, Oregon is a very liberal state, there must be hundreds of options for a gay wedding. Yes, they got unlucky. But it was the second time they had faced this kind of prejudice during the planning, so as liberal as Oregon might be, it transpires that at least in 2013, there was still plenty of people out there that would cause them problems.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2424 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
See posts 302, 7-8, 79, plus your post. I also mentioned Acts 15 in a post. I also suspected Faith would say Corinthians 6:12 was just about meat. I brought up Acts 15 because I see that as the only left over Old Testament law that remained in effect for all. I brought up I Cor 6:12 because of the multiple possible implications such as Paul possibly saying that sins shouldn't be made illegal by the state. I know meat gets brought up and the "ceremonial" excuse quickly rears its head in these types of debates.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2424 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
People say New York City is liberal but they are clueless. Blacks and Hispanics are like 55 percent of the population and there are lots of super religious Asians and whites too. The word liberal is the most thrown around, used, and abused cloudy mushroom that blows away any hope of getting an understanding of what is and has been going on in America and the world. I almost prefer b.s. about legal homosexual marriage bringing the fall of Rome in 476 (nevermind theocracy and all the stuff that really happened ) over this endless throwing the L word around to describe the modern United States.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Percy Member Posts: 22504 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Why do you think the Bible should govern the secular definition of marriage?
--Percy
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Good grief, it isn't "just about meat!!" What Paul said about all things being lawful to him simply happens to refer back to that one passage about eating meat sacrificed to idols. Because that's where he said those very same words. But in the context of 1 Cor 6 he must be using it to refer to some view held by someone in the Corinthian Church. Since he mentions being joined to a harlot it is frequently guessed that he was dealing with the opinion that visiting prostitutes was lawful for a Christian. Not meat, visiting prostitutes. As I argued, there is so much in the Bible that makes it clear that sin cannot ever be "lawful" let alone Paul's remark in this very context that it would mean joining Christ to a harlot, which is a clear statement that it isn't lawful, there is no way to justify the lawfulness of sin from this passage, and if it doesn't suffice for you, read the reast of the Bible which should leave no doubt.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Why do you think the Bible should govern the secular definition of marriage? Why would you think I think that since I've said no such thing?. It governs the conscience of the people who have had to refuse service for a gay wedding (not gays in any other context -- only a gay WEDDING.) That's all I've said. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9514 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Modulous writes: Or maybe realize I don't care what you do with it, because, you know - fuck you [...] And again, for effect: Fuck you..[...] No the problem is that you say you are, but you clearly aren't.[...] Clearly you don't get it. I doubt there is much hope you will any time soon. In some way, I hope you don't get it - because it'll probably only happen as a result of an injustice being carried out against you or - more likely, a loved one. You may be right, perhaps I'm not on your side. But I *am* on the side of LGBT folk that can see beyond their own prejudice. You've got some way to go. I wish you luck with it, but if what you say is true, you need to work out who your friends are because it sounds like you need some.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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jar Member (Idle past 423 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
No mention of marriage there Faith.
Have you ever read the Bible? Those verses can as easily refer to shacking up as marriage. Edited by jar, : appalin spallin thos ---> those
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