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Author Topic:   Gay Marriage as an attack on Christianity
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 331 of 1484 (802610)
03-18-2017 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 329 by LamarkNewAge
03-18-2017 12:50 PM


Re: FYI and meat eating. as "petty"
LMA writes:
the constant bringing up of meat in this thread
Huh?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 329 by LamarkNewAge, posted 03-18-2017 12:50 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 338 by LamarkNewAge, posted 03-18-2017 2:22 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 332 of 1484 (802611)
03-18-2017 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 330 by Faith
03-18-2017 12:50 PM


Re: FYI
Faith writes:
YOUR understanding of how the Bible defines marriage is absolutely utterly and completely irrelevant. Conservative Christians know it forbids gay marriage and it doesn't matter in the slightest what YOU think about it.
The Conservative Christian "understanding" of the Bible has nothing to do with the Bible - which is why you always run away from discussions of the Bible.
The Bible doesn't support your position.
Faith writes:
THIS IS NOT ABOUT JUDGING PERSONAL SINS
Of course it is. You're not fooling anybody but yourself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 330 by Faith, posted 03-18-2017 12:50 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 333 by Faith, posted 03-18-2017 1:35 PM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 333 of 1484 (802614)
03-18-2017 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 332 by ringo
03-18-2017 12:59 PM


Bible definition of gay marriage
Faith writes:
YOUR understanding of how the Bible defines marriage is absolutely utterly and completely irrelevant. Conservative Christians know it forbids gay marriage and it doesn't matter in the slightest what YOU think about it.
The Conservative Christian "understanding" of the Bible has nothing to do with the Bible - which is why you always run away from discussions of the Bible.
The Bible doesn't support your position.
THIS IS NOT ABOUT JUDGING PERSONAL SINS
Of course it is. You're not fooling anybody but yourself.
Every word you said there is false, illogical and weirdly twisted as a matter of fact, but it doesn't matter, what I said still stands: Your understanding is absolutely and completely irrelevant, it's the conservative Christian view, that is shared by all those who have so far come in conflict with the gay marriage ruling, along with millions of others, that defines the problem this thread is about.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 332 by ringo, posted 03-18-2017 12:59 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 334 by Theodoric, posted 03-18-2017 1:40 PM Faith has replied
 Message 404 by ringo, posted 03-19-2017 2:10 PM Faith has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 334 of 1484 (802616)
03-18-2017 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 333 by Faith
03-18-2017 1:35 PM


Re: Bible definition of gay marriage
Post the biblical definition of marriage. Please cite chapter and verse.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 333 by Faith, posted 03-18-2017 1:35 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 340 by Faith, posted 03-18-2017 3:39 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 335 of 1484 (802618)
03-18-2017 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 308 by Tangle
03-17-2017 7:35 PM


Yes buying a cake is still trivial.
Yes, obviously. Everybody agrees with this. Nobody gives a shit about fucking cake.
This is not, however, about cake.
Despite me saying, despite them saying it, despite the bureau of labour and industries saying it - you still ignore this fact.
I can't do any more for you I'm afraid.
No, one should shrug it off and buy the cake next door from someone that isn't a bigoted idiot.
You should become a psychiatrist:
You should just cheer up and stop being depressed.
You should calm down and stop being manic.
You should chill out and stop having a panic account.
Humans, of course, don't work like this. Most queers in most cases do shrug off the many many instances of bigotry directed at them. They have to in order to function. But sometimes it isn't so trivial. People are complicated, they exist in social groups, they have history and emotions and weddings are notoriously periods of heightened emotional states.
So it doesn't matter how you think people 'should' react. You have to deal with how people, humans with emotions, feelings, histories, families... actually do react. Sometimes it is a cold fact of the matter that 'shrugging it off', as much as someone might want to be able to do so, isn't what happens.
And just to say it again: They do, as a matter of fact, go and buy the damned cake elsewhere.
Fuck you if you think that.
Well now, what are we supposed to do with that?
Shrug it off? Or maybe realize I don't care what you do with it, because, you know - fuck you.
This is a real problem, you're talking to people who are on your side.
No the problem is that you say you are, but you clearly aren't.
People who hate these bigots at least as much as you do.
This has never been about hatred of bigots. As long as bigots provide us with equal access to services and treat as equally human with equal dignity, they can think whatever little bigoted nonsense they like.
So maybe this is unusual, but it's proof that gays needn't feel like victims anymore.
Nobody 'needs' to feel like a victim.
Further, your personal life experiences are not proof that people that grew up gay in Texas and moved to Oregon to escape prejudice weren't harmed by the Oregon cake shop.
What I hear from you has a terrible resemblance to Faith's embittered martydom speeches.
And again, for effect: Fuck you.
But her kind of primitive prejudice is an anachronism - maybe time to join the rest of us
Agreed - wouldn't it be nice if queerfolk had the equal access required to join the rest of you?
ignore the shits and get on with a normal life?
Queerfolk that are alive are disproportionally better than straight folk at ignoring the shits. We've had inordinately more practice at it. But you know what has always been true? Ignoring everything all the time isn't the solution. Sometimes you have to confront it. Sometimes you have to say 'I will not accept being made to feel less than human, I will not accept my loved ones being hurt, I will not accept people breaking the law and souring our happy occasion'.
Clearly you don't get it. I doubt there is much hope you will any time soon. In some way, I hope you don't get it - because it'll probably only happen as a result of an injustice being carried out against you or - more likely, a loved one. For what it's worth, if it did happen, I won't suggest you just shrug it off out of fear of 'maybe' harming the cause by irritating people should the media decide to publish the abridged details about it.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by Tangle, posted 03-17-2017 7:35 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 344 by Tangle, posted 03-18-2017 3:57 PM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 336 of 1484 (802619)
03-18-2017 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 311 by Minnemooseus
03-18-2017 3:11 AM


Re: Alternative bakeries
This happened in a suburb of Portland, OR, I'm pretty sure a liberal area where alternative bakeries were available (did Mod cite an alternative bakery?).
I mentioned one. There were two named alternative bakeries in the case. There multiple others mentioned that were not named.
They moved to Portland, OR from Texas to avoid this kind of nonsense.
They used Sweet Cakes because:
a) Their venue had recommended them
b) Their caterers had recommended them
c) They had a positive interaction at a wedding Expo where they started making the arrangements for a tasting.
d) They had previously used them for a wedding cake and like it.
They didn't anticipate the behaviour, nor did any of the people that recommended it - it came out of nowhere. Within a few days they had started making arrangements with other bakers (through Cheryl, the mother, since Rachel was too anxious of another rejection and Laurel was afraid another rejection would result in Rachel cancelling the wedding out of despair).

This message is a reply to:
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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 337 of 1484 (802620)
03-18-2017 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 316 by Faith
03-18-2017 10:30 AM


Re: The Oregon Story
It is interesting to hear the whole story from the couple's side. I'd heard they were turned down very politely but if what they say is true it wasn't so polite.
You might be confusing the case with the Masterpiece Cakeshop where the refusal was as polite as it can be given the circumstances. In the Sweetcakes case, I believe it was not disputed that the denial was 'impolite'.
However, I don't get why someone who had lived as a lesbian for so many years would be so nave as not to know there could be problems with setting up a wedding to her lesbian partner, or why it would have such a devastating emotional effect on her, especially since her own mother had been opposed to her relationship until recently.
She moved to Portland from Texas because they know there could be problems. Rachel had already expressed reticence in getting married, but decided that since they had foster children, it would be ultimately for the best for the kids.
They were not nave.
And correct me if I misread, but I gather this all happened before the SCOTUS ruling too?
You are correct.
They ended up calling around and finding a bakery that wouldn't have a problem with a gay wedding. Shouldn't that have been done in the first place?
They shouldn't have needed to.
As Moose pointed out, Oregon is a very liberal state, there must be hundreds of options for a gay wedding.
Yes, they got unlucky. But it was the second time they had faced this kind of prejudice during the planning, so as liberal as Oregon might be, it transpires that at least in 2013, there was still plenty of people out there that would cause them problems.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by Faith, posted 03-18-2017 10:30 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 339 by LamarkNewAge, posted 03-18-2017 2:34 PM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 338 of 1484 (802622)
03-18-2017 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 331 by ringo
03-18-2017 12:56 PM


Re: FYI and meat eating. as "petty"
See posts 302, 7-8, 79, plus your post. I also mentioned Acts 15 in a post. I also suspected Faith would say Corinthians 6:12 was just about meat. I brought up Acts 15 because I see that as the only left over Old Testament law that remained in effect for all. I brought up I Cor 6:12 because of the multiple possible implications such as Paul possibly saying that sins shouldn't be made illegal by the state. I know meat gets brought up and the "ceremonial" excuse quickly rears its head in these types of debates.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by ringo, posted 03-18-2017 12:56 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 342 by Faith, posted 03-18-2017 3:54 PM LamarkNewAge has replied
 Message 405 by ringo, posted 03-19-2017 2:15 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 339 of 1484 (802623)
03-18-2017 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 337 by Modulous
03-18-2017 2:03 PM


Re: The Oregon Story
People say New York City is liberal but they are clueless. Blacks and Hispanics are like 55 percent of the population and there are lots of super religious Asians and whites too. The word liberal is the most thrown around, used, and abused cloudy mushroom that blows away any hope of getting an understanding of what is and has been going on in America and the world. I almost prefer b.s. about legal homosexual marriage bringing the fall of Rome in 476 (nevermind theocracy and all the stuff that really happened ) over this endless throwing the L word around to describe the modern United States.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 340 of 1484 (802625)
03-18-2017 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 334 by Theodoric
03-18-2017 1:40 PM


Re: Bible definition of gay marriage
Post the biblical definition of marriage. Please cite chapter and verse.
Message 278

This message is a reply to:
 Message 334 by Theodoric, posted 03-18-2017 1:40 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 341 by Percy, posted 03-18-2017 3:49 PM Faith has replied
 Message 345 by jar, posted 03-18-2017 4:09 PM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 341 of 1484 (802626)
03-18-2017 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 340 by Faith
03-18-2017 3:39 PM


Re: Bible definition of gay marriage
Why do you think the Bible should govern the secular definition of marriage?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by Faith, posted 03-18-2017 3:39 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 343 by Faith, posted 03-18-2017 3:57 PM Percy has replied
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 342 of 1484 (802627)
03-18-2017 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 338 by LamarkNewAge
03-18-2017 2:22 PM


Re: FYI and meat eating. as "petty"
Good grief, it isn't "just about meat!!" What Paul said about all things being lawful to him simply happens to refer back to that one passage about eating meat sacrificed to idols. Because that's where he said those very same words. But in the context of 1 Cor 6 he must be using it to refer to some view held by someone in the Corinthian Church. Since he mentions being joined to a harlot it is frequently guessed that he was dealing with the opinion that visiting prostitutes was lawful for a Christian. Not meat, visiting prostitutes. As I argued, there is so much in the Bible that makes it clear that sin cannot ever be "lawful" let alone Paul's remark in this very context that it would mean joining Christ to a harlot, which is a clear statement that it isn't lawful, there is no way to justify the lawfulness of sin from this passage, and if it doesn't suffice for you, read the reast of the Bible which should leave no doubt.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 338 by LamarkNewAge, posted 03-18-2017 2:22 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 347 by LamarkNewAge, posted 03-18-2017 4:26 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 343 of 1484 (802628)
03-18-2017 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 341 by Percy
03-18-2017 3:49 PM


Re: Bible definition of gay marriage
Why do you think the Bible should govern the secular definition of marriage?
Why would you think I think that since I've said no such thing?. It governs the conscience of the people who have had to refuse service for a gay wedding (not gays in any other context -- only a gay WEDDING.) That's all I've said.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 341 by Percy, posted 03-18-2017 3:49 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 348 by Percy, posted 03-18-2017 4:29 PM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 344 of 1484 (802629)
03-18-2017 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 335 by Modulous
03-18-2017 1:44 PM


Modulous writes:
Or maybe realize I don't care what you do with it, because, you know - fuck you [...] And again, for effect: Fuck you..[...] No the problem is that you say you are, but you clearly aren't.[...] Clearly you don't get it. I doubt there is much hope you will any time soon. In some way, I hope you don't get it - because it'll probably only happen as a result of an injustice being carried out against you or - more likely, a loved one.
You may be right, perhaps I'm not on your side. But I *am* on the side of LGBT folk that can see beyond their own prejudice. You've got some way to go. I wish you luck with it, but if what you say is true, you need to work out who your friends are because it sounds like you need some.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 335 by Modulous, posted 03-18-2017 1:44 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 352 by Modulous, posted 03-18-2017 5:08 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 372 by Rrhain, posted 03-19-2017 4:24 AM Tangle has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 345 of 1484 (802630)
03-18-2017 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 340 by Faith
03-18-2017 3:39 PM


Re: Bible definition of gay marriage
No mention of marriage there Faith.
Have you ever read the Bible?
Those verses can as easily refer to shacking up as marriage.
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin thos ---> those

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

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Replies to this message:
 Message 350 by Percy, posted 03-18-2017 4:34 PM jar has replied

  
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