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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Gay Marriage as an attack on Christianity | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22499 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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Faith writes: The gay activist who wrote the piece in The Guardian brought out the important point, that it is not discrimination against people. I think that ought to become the understanding of these cases. Just for reference here's that article again. The Guardian article, as PaulK also reminds you, is about writing on a cake, and you titled your post "The Main Points". Would you make up your mind, please, whether writing is an issue for you? You said it wasn't an issue for you in your last post to me, so there were points I didn't raise, but now here you are introducing writing again. Replying also to Message 554, Jesus would march into the bakery, buy the cake for the gay couple, then push over all the bakery displays. He didn't believe that showing love for his fellow man was an endorsement of anything. --Percy
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2422 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
quote: Do you know that the Bible seems to allow Jews to sell non kosher food to gentiles (though the rabbinical authorities have debate over the issue)? I have already shown how Faith ignores the injunction against "blood" and what is "strangled"(which seems to be based on the Mishnah rules for slaughter), not to mention "fornication" (!) in Acts 15:20, 15:29, 21:25, etc. But consider Deuteronomy 14:21.
quote: That was raw Bible text in the "Law of Moses" Rabbinical issues however.
quote: Check out the technological marvel that is google! Google also put in words like:kosher slaughter chickens neck (add strangled also) I don't want to over simplify this issue (otherwise I would be as lousy and disrespectful toward sin and the law and my fellow humans as Faith), as it is complicated. Shechita - Wikipedia
quote: Understand that here are forbidden techniques which are consistent with Acts 15:20, but contradict the written Torah. The Written Torah says that a chicken should be killed by wringing its head off but the New Testament and Rabbinical texts (the Mishnah which is in the Talmud) prohibit such.
quote: Faith is ignorant IMO. She will ignore Deuteronomy 14:21 Just like she won't address Paul saying "all things are lawful" (whatever that means exactly with regards to "all" and "lawful" not o mention "things") in any other manner than a highly simplistic manner - and one that happens to fit conveniently into her preconceived ("biblical" so-called) views.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2422 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
quote: Faith typically follows Roman Catholic teaching 100%. (On this issue, however, the Pope says he has no right to judge and he said "mah", when asked about homosexuality, which means something like "how the heck would I know") More distortion on her part. She only attacks Catholics as a thinly veiled scheme to make it sound like her type of Christianity (Roman Christian or at least Orthodox) is one that is divorced from past persecutions. (she ignored Protestant atrocities and claims that was secular government's fault when asked)
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2422 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
We already seen that she feels James, Peter, Paul, etc. misunderstood what she feels they should have understood as sin (see her comments on Acts 15:20).
I Corinthians 14:34-35 (the same forger who wrote the Pastoral Epistles added this to 1 Corinthians 14, and amazingly every fundamentalists I have asked to examine the whole text agrees with me that it was clearly added later in between 14:1-33 and 14:36-40)
quote: I Timothy 2
quote: Then 1 Corinthians 11:2-16
quote: Respect the text. How to "follow" it is the responsibility of those who call themselves "Christians" I suppose, but it deserves the respect and attention of all. As does Deuteronomy 14:21.
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kjsimons Member Posts: 822 From: Orlando,FL Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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In Colorado where a bakery refused to put the words "God hates fags" on a cake but did offer to sell the man a cake and provide icing for him to put whatever message he wanted on it, the court decided in favor of the bakery. This seems to be the appropriate ruling.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
What I said to you was that this thread from the beginning has been about a wedding cake, that the writing on the cake was the issue in the UK that got the bakery there fined, which entered the thread recently and to my mind is not the topic here. You kept talking about it so I tried to explain that and of course you muddled it all up.
However, I don't make a distinction, I believe they are the same kind of situation but you seemed to be making a distinction so I pointed out that the writing isn't what this thread has been about from the begtinning. But again, I think the two situations are equivalent myself.
Replying also to Message 554, Jesus would march into the bakery, buy the cake for the gay couple, then push over all the bakery displays. He didn't believe that showing love for his fellow man was an endorsement of anything. Jesus would kindly tell the gays to repent and be saved, He died for their sins, He would most certainly not join in anything that violates God's marriage ordinance which He himself confirmed in Matthew 19. He might treat them to coffee and a doughnut. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
That sounds like a reasonable solution to the writing problem. Unfortunately I don't know what the comparable solution to the wedding cake problem might be: bag up all the ingredients to make such a cake and provide written instructions?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
This is just to report that I don't read his posts, because I really can't get through them. They are voluminous and what I pick up of his message here and there is so bizarre I don't know where to begin to respond anyway. I don't know what he thinks he is doing. He's apparently accusing me of this, that or the other, but his statements about me are all false as far as I've seen. He quotes me quite a bit apparently but doesn't seem to have a clue what I meant. I can't wade through all that word mush to find out if there's anything to any of it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Faith typically follows Roman Catholic teaching 100%. This a pretty strange thing to say. Certainly there are large areas of overlap between Catholic teaching and Protestant doctrine, but just as clearly there are departures, many of which have been the subject of discussion here. Faith is pretty much hardcore fundy Protestant.
She only attacks Catholics as a thinly veiled scheme to make it sound like her type of Christianity (Roman Christian or at least Orthodox) is one that is divorced from past persecutions. (she ignored Protestant atrocities and claims that was secular government's fault when asked) I don't think it is a scheme at all. I think her hatred for Catholicism is completely sincere. Her hatred is classic fundy Protestant doctrine. She does indeed ignore Protestant atrocities in new threads even after having acknowledged them in other threads, but that's a separate issue. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
There obviously is a distinction.
In the case of icing a slogan then the assertion that the baker is objecting to the slogan rather than the person it is for is defensible. In refusing to bake a cake for a gay wedding it is rather obvious that the objection is to the wedding - and therefore the couple getting married. Yes, I know it is convenient for you not to see that distinction but it is there and is at the root of Tatchell's article.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Sorry, I continue to insist that objecting to a gay wedding is not the same as discriminating against gay people, who, as has been affirmed over and over and over, are quite welcome to anything else in the bakery. Objecting to a gay wedding is refusing a particular service which is the same thing as refusing the service of writing a message on a cake.
You keep saying you are sure Tatchell would not agree about the wedding cake and perhaps you are right but you don't know and haven't shown it to be so. ABE: The message on the cake that was refused was Support Same Sex Marriage. It was a refusal to affirm gay marriage the same as a wedding caker for a gay wedding here is. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Percy Member Posts: 22499 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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Faith writes: But again, I think the two situations are equivalent myself. So if you believe they're equivalent then it's fine to discuss writing on a cake? You're sure this time? You do recall that you were earlier drawing significant distinctions between the two as your reasons for wanting to discuss one but not the other?
Jesus would kindly tell the gays to repent and be saved, He died for their sins, He would most certainly not join in anything that violates God's marriage ordinance which He himself confirmed in Matthew 19. Jesus would write in microscopic letters, "Speak softly. Repent of shouting at people in large type and be saved." Then he would say, "God loves everyone and wants them to have wedding cakes, including gays." The main point is as PaulK says, that there *is* a significant distinction between a messageless cake and a cake with a message. They are not equivalent. --Percy
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: You can continue to assert anything you like but you are obviously wrong. The couple are not getting a wedding cake because they are gay. That is obvious.
quote: Except that the objection is not to the service - the objection is to the recipients of the service. You can say that the baker would not ice that particular slogan for anyone but you can't say that the baker wouldn't bake an identical cake for a straight couple.
quote: Actually I say that Tatchell's argument is all about slogans and doesn't address the issue of supplying otherwise uncontroversial services to a gay wedding. Given that he is a gay rights activist, I think it very likely that he does disagree with you, but there is no need to show that.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
You seemed to making the whole thing to be about writing on a cake and completely ignoring the subject of this thread. And you were saying they aren't the same thing in your imperious know-it-all style. if you want to consider it in its proper position go ahead, but I've already answered it.
Their MEANING TO THE BAKER IS EQUIVALENT. I could not care less what their meaning to YOU is. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
hat sounds like a reasonable solution to the writing problem. Unfortunately I don't know what the comparable solution to the wedding cake problem might be: bag up all the ingredients to make such a cake and provide written instructions? It is fairly obvious what the equivalent solution would be. Just make the cake without making it gay specific. The problem is that you would not accept that solution. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
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