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Author Topic:   Gay Marriage as an attack on Christianity
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 616 of 1484 (803034)
03-23-2017 3:13 AM
Reply to: Message 609 by Faith
03-22-2017 10:24 PM


Gay marriage is a violation of the marriage ordinance itself. Adultery, although sin, does not challenge the marriage ordinance.
This is totally made up. At worst, homosexuality is an abomination and is not described as any worse than the other abominations in the Bible, many of which you yourself give short shrift to. There is no Biblical marriage ordinance.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 609 by Faith, posted 03-22-2017 10:24 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 621 by Faith, posted 03-23-2017 10:50 AM NoNukes has replied
 Message 623 by Faith, posted 03-23-2017 10:58 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 617 of 1484 (803043)
03-23-2017 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 580 by Faith
03-22-2017 3:01 PM


Re: The Main Points
Faith writes:
What Jesus never did was treat sinners as not sinners, or advocate disobeying God's laws.
Once again Faith, the Bible says that you are wrong. Jesus said that if your ass falls in a crack on the Sabbath you should not wait until the next day to pull it out.
The Bible says that even just common courtesy overrides God's laws as you have been shown several times in this very thread. See Message 13 for one example.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 580 by Faith, posted 03-22-2017 3:01 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 625 by Faith, posted 03-23-2017 11:05 AM jar has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 618 of 1484 (803045)
03-23-2017 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 592 by Percy
03-22-2017 4:17 PM


Re: The Main Points
Writing a message is the only objection that makes sense. One shouldn't be compelled to write things one doesn't believe.
But someone should be compelled to sell something they don't believe in? Genuine question, what is it about writing something, but not selling something, that makes it make sense to avoid compelling someone to do it?
If you look at selling the thing as providing a service to the public, and therefore must be provided without discrimination, then why not also include writing the thing as a service that must be provided without discrimination?
I'm asking in principle, I understand that speech is explicitly protected and selling isn't. But I'm not sure I really see the difference.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 592 by Percy, posted 03-22-2017 4:17 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 619 by jar, posted 03-23-2017 10:24 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied
 Message 628 by Percy, posted 03-23-2017 11:16 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 619 of 1484 (803046)
03-23-2017 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 618 by New Cat's Eye
03-23-2017 10:22 AM


Re: The Main Points
NCE writes:
I'm asking in principle, I understand that speech is explicitly protected and selling isn't.
You pretty much covered it. One is protected, one is not.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 618 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-23-2017 10:22 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 620 of 1484 (803047)
03-23-2017 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 591 by Percy
03-22-2017 4:12 PM


Re: The Main Points
Would Jesus support same sex marriage? I don't know, the Bible writers didn't include any stories that tell us.
Look at what Jesus said about divorce:
quote:
From Matthew 19:
7 Why then, they asked, did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?
8 Jesus replied, Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.
10 The disciples said to him, If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.
11 Jesus replied, Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by othersand there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.
Jesus is saying that there are people who are born in a way, or have chosen to be, where they opt out of "godly" marriage, and that if they cannot accept the godly marriage then that is okay, the ones who can accept it are the ones who should.
I think that leaves room for allowing a secular marriage between gays.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 591 by Percy, posted 03-22-2017 4:12 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 621 of 1484 (803048)
03-23-2017 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 616 by NoNukes
03-23-2017 3:13 AM


This is totally made up. At worst, homosexuality is an abomination and is not described as any worse than the other abominations in the Bible, many of which you yourself give short shrift to. There is no Biblical marriage ordinance.
As long as people keep making this kind of "objective" argument, the only answer left is that all those business owners and some millions of others say you're wrong, and the businesspeople are the ones who said so with their actions and got punished for it. So your way of reading the Bible is quite irrelevant to the situation.
Also, the people who acted on it may not even have a theology about the marriage ordinance, they might not even be able to say where it is in the Bible, they just know what God said about marriage and that Jesus repeated it and that is the definition of God-given marriage for them which they won't violate. In other words this is something Christians just "know" and millions agree on it independently and consistently. It's odd any Christian has any other idea about it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 616 by NoNukes, posted 03-23-2017 3:13 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 635 by NoNukes, posted 03-23-2017 12:11 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 622 of 1484 (803049)
03-23-2017 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 615 by PaulK
03-23-2017 1:45 AM


Re: Civil gay marriage is legitimate
So we come back to the idea that you "Christians" should dictate the secular law. Not exactly Biblical, is it ?
I don't see where you are getting that. All that's been said is that Christians can't obey a particular secular law and therefore get punished for it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 615 by PaulK, posted 03-23-2017 1:45 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 624 by PaulK, posted 03-23-2017 11:04 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 623 of 1484 (803050)
03-23-2017 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 616 by NoNukes
03-23-2017 3:13 AM


Gay marriage changes the definition of marriage; as far as I can see adultery or any other sin does not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 616 by NoNukes, posted 03-23-2017 3:13 AM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 626 by PaulK, posted 03-23-2017 11:07 AM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 624 of 1484 (803051)
03-23-2017 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 622 by Faith
03-23-2017 10:57 AM


Re: Civil gay marriage is legitimate
I get it from the fact that you claim to have the only legitimate form of marriage and object to any variations - to the point of refusing to even supply services to the celebrations.
quote:
All that's been said is that Christians can't obey a particular secular law and therefore get punished for it.
And that law says that businesses can't discriminate against gays.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 622 by Faith, posted 03-23-2017 10:57 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 627 by Faith, posted 03-23-2017 11:12 AM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 625 of 1484 (803052)
03-23-2017 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 617 by jar
03-23-2017 9:55 AM


Re: The Main Points
Jesus defined the Sabbath as made for man, and said He Himself is the Lord of the Sabbath, the idea being that He has the power to define it, and it was meant to be a blessing and not a burden.
The only changes Jesus made to the moral law were to reveal their stricter meaning than the ancient Israelites understood, far from loosening them. Even lust in the heart is to be understood as adultery,and hared in the heart is to be understood as murder There is no way gay marriage is justified in anything Jesus said.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 617 by jar, posted 03-23-2017 9:55 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 630 by jar, posted 03-23-2017 11:31 AM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 626 of 1484 (803053)
03-23-2017 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 623 by Faith
03-23-2017 10:58 AM


quote:
Gay marriage changes the definition of marriage; as far as I can see adultery or any other sin does not.
Gay marriage is a secular arrangement. Aside from the presumption of sexual activity - which applies equally to marriage after divorce - there is nothing sinful about it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 623 by Faith, posted 03-23-2017 10:58 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 627 of 1484 (803054)
03-23-2017 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 624 by PaulK
03-23-2017 11:04 AM


Re: Civil gay marriage is legitimate
I get it from the fact that you claim to have the only legitimate form of marriage and object to any variations - to the point of refusing to even supply services to the celebrations.
Most secular laws don't conflict with God's law in such a way as to put a Christian in a dilemma, but the law legitimizing gay marriage does. God is God, no secular law can be above His in the mind of a Christian.
All that's been said is that Christians can't obey a particular secular law and therefore get punished for it.
And that law says that businesses can't discriminate against gays.
And Roman law said that everybody had to worship Caesar.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 624 by PaulK, posted 03-23-2017 11:04 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 629 by PaulK, posted 03-23-2017 11:29 AM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 628 of 1484 (803055)
03-23-2017 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 618 by New Cat's Eye
03-23-2017 10:22 AM


Re: The Main Points
New Cat's Eye writes:
But someone should be compelled to sell something they don't believe in?
I think maybe you meant to ask this differently, like whether someone should be compelled to sell to someone engaged in a practice they object to? Phrased more generally the question is whether there can be legitimate reasons for a business to select which members of the public it will serve and which it won't. With the exception of things like bars selling drinks to drunks or convenience stores selling cigarettes to minors, it's deemed discrimination and businesses aren't allowed to do that.
Genuine question, what is it about writing something, but not selling something, that makes it make sense to avoid compelling someone to do it?
If you look at selling the thing as providing a service to the public, and therefore must be provided without discrimination, then why not also include writing the thing as a service that must be provided without discrimination?
I'm asking in principle, I understand that speech is explicitly protected and selling isn't. But I'm not sure I really see the difference.
Our baker sells wedding cakes to anyone all the time, but he never writes words that conflict with his fundamental beliefs, such as "All the best in your marriage Chuck and Dave." Plus there's freedom of speech - compelling someone to write something he finds abhorrent doesn't sound very free.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 618 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-23-2017 10:22 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 631 by Faith, posted 03-23-2017 11:37 AM Percy has replied
 Message 637 by NoNukes, posted 03-23-2017 12:18 PM Percy has replied
 Message 644 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-23-2017 3:19 PM Percy has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 629 of 1484 (803056)
03-23-2017 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 627 by Faith
03-23-2017 11:12 AM


Re: Civil gay marriage is legitimate
quote:
Most secular laws don't conflict with God's law in such a way as to put a Christian in a dilemma, but the law legitimizing gay marriage does.
There doesn't seem to be any reason why there has to be a dilemma. It's a secular arrangement, one you have no authority over, so accept it. You don't have to like it, but is it really worth making a fuss about it ?
quote:
And Roman law said that everybody had to worship Caesar.
So discriminating against gays is a fundamental tenet of "Christianity". Thanks for admitting it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 627 by Faith, posted 03-23-2017 11:12 AM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 630 of 1484 (803057)
03-23-2017 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 625 by Faith
03-23-2017 11:05 AM


Re: The Main Points
Faith writes:
Jesus defined the Sabbath as made for man, and said He Himself is the Lord of the Sabbath, the idea being that He has the power to define it, and it was meant to be a blessing and not a burden.
Which is Jesus ignoring and countermanding the Word of God.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 625 by Faith, posted 03-23-2017 11:05 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 632 by Faith, posted 03-23-2017 11:48 AM jar has replied

  
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