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Author | Topic: What Benefits Are Only Available Through God? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Stile writes: Perhaps I can be of help. Allow me to refocus our topic.
There is a discussion to be had here... but it would be more fitting under a topic of "where does morality come from" or a new topic on the understanding of modern psychology where decision making is concerned... or maybe even a thread about whether or not reality is strictly determined on the level of physics. But, regardless of where it should be... it's getting too far off the topic to be here. Can (anyone) explain how me trying to help others is different from Jesus trying to help others? For one thing, we read that Jesus healed people. Can we claim the same ability? Psychology and physics are not appropriate in Faith & Belief. This conversation should be limited to Faith (In Jesus) or I suppose...for you, Stile...faith in yourself. ...keep Faith & Belief as the focus, however...not science and human logic.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
yeah, but you can't spit on dirt and rub mud in their eye...you gotta resort to technology in most cases...
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Stile writes: That's why this is a Faith&Belief Forum...scientific proof is not needed. My argument is that Jesus had many ways of healing depicted in the stories that men of that generation or this generation we now live in would simply be unable to duplicate. Can you show us that Jesus/God actually does this miraculous healing? And, well, the short answer is "no, you cannot."Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
even then, science can make progress, it just may require a paradigm shift and some more time. So how come science gets to have a paradigm shift while faith never gets that option? Quite simply, what's so wrong with believing in miracles? magic, even? Everyone is so bent on proving what we know and so reluctant to validate what we believe... So for a moment let's run with the belief in a magical God. Is this belief harmful? Has it been ruled impossible? If so, who made the rules? I would argue that believing in a healing does not absolve one of a responsibility to see a doctor. I would argue, however, that blatant dismissal of magic as a potential and viable option---even if demonstrated no further than as a placebo effect---is unnecessary.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
only if you believe that humans are responsible for their own progress---even to the point of correcting the Gods they invent. I'm talking about the Creator of all seen and unseen...the One whom you have no ability to correct or improve upon.
You have asked the question a few times of "why should GOD favor you"? My answer? He has no obligation to do so. It is a blessing when it happens, however. Why should humans get all the credit for their own progress?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
well I suppose you could argue that the Creator does not *have* to be perfect, but the concept then becomes a creative imagination of your own mind....
We like our deities to be larger than life. Perfection is, after all, a worthy goal and calling.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Stile writes: What specific facts are you looking for? I admit that there may be benefits that are only available through God for certain individual people who are geared towards such possibility-based methods of spirituality.Possibility-based in the sense that God is possible. And it's possible that God is the most powerful being ever. And it's possible that God is the most benevolent being ever... all those kinds of things. But there will always be others (perhaps myself, even) who are geared towards more factually-based methods of spirituality.As an example, take pyramid power. If it could be documented that the atmosphere within the pyramid is in fact charged with more electrical stimulus than a control box, would that somehow make pyramid power more valid as a factually based spiritual path? Stile writes: That last sentence bothers me. Are you claiming that the source of the spirituality is less important than the recipient of said spirituality? Sounds a bit like the i-god syndrome. The point of this thread is to: 1. Identify if there are any factually-based spiritual levels that I am unaware of that I can gain benefits from. If such things exist, obviously I would like to cure my ignorance 2. Identify that factually-based spiritual levels are just as valid or powerful as possibility-based spiritual levels. It doesn't matter what kind of spiritual feelings they are... what matters is the type of person gaining benefits from those feelings. I will admit, however, that one reason that I communicate (or pray) daily is in hopes of personally benefitting from such a relationship. Perhaps, in the final analysis, we all are selfish to a degree.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: In the context of Faith & Belief, it does. Some say it doesn't, just as some say He isn't. Perfection itself is a product of the imagination. It doesn't exist in reality, does it? Perhaps the question is whether perfection is a valid goal and ideal for us to strive towards...without fully understanding what it is. Trying to do your best every day is one method. Trusting that the Creator understands our shortcomings is another. Scripture says that the fear of the lord is the beginning of wisdom. I feel that a healthy fear of how far I have to go to even approach perfection is a loving form of discipline. It's like realizing that one has to write a fifteen-page term paper over the weekend. All you can do is try your best and hope that the teacher will overlook the fact that all you managed to produce is 12 pages double spaced. Just as with the term paper, it is unwise to procrastinate. People should begin to think about whether they want to have a relationship with an unprovable invisible Deity long before they are on their deathbed. For me, I try and be honest with myself in prayer and meditation. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
That was an interesting article. This part stood out for me:
quote: I'm not afraid of losing my belief in Jesus, but I am afraid of losing any support He may offer. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I don't think you quite understand what I mean. I'm not afraid of losing my belief in Jesus, as the girl did. I don't ever see that happening. What I am afraid of is losing the whole idea that there is help available. I'm not looking for a human support network. I have not even been to church in 8 months. Unlike the girl in the article, I never really connected with believers the way that I connect to ...even EvC, for example. Also, unlike her, I have not doubted my belief. I'm just starting to realize that being responsible is as important as being a faithful believer.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Stile writes: Quite honestly I think that I am afraid of losing my mother. She always helped me. I felt blissfully loved (and entitled) and once she is gone, I will have nothing and nobody who loved me so much. What sort of help are you afraid of losing?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Scripture as originally written is known by attributes, it is not known by belief. You frustrate me to no end. It is one thing to debate the validity of scripture with a critical thinker for I can respect their opinion regarding the fallibility of scripture vs the infallibility. I can understand their logical approach. You, on the other hand, are chock full of paganism and new age psychobabble which the church clearly sees as demonically inspired claptrap. I was so angry at initially reading your crap that I banned you for eternity until I thought better of it after a good nights sleep. (In AdminPhat mode) I suppose that to be fair, Thugpreacha by definition should at least tolerate other belief systems no matter how satanically they come across to his discerning mind. Keep in mind, however, that as long as I am allowed to be a religious moderator here at this forum I will frame the paradigm and status flow in context to my own belief and authority. You are, of course, free to challenge my conclusions but keep in mind that in regards to Faith & Belief, this is my rodeo.
Paraphrased scripture from the book of John: "... You do not see the wind, but you do not have to believe the wind is blowing. You can see with your eyes a candlestick that shines the light that I Am. See, that is bullshit to me, plain and simple. Excuse my French. Critics may well say that the authors of John were redactors with an independent ulterior motive, but I will challenge that assertion even if it comes from reputed scholars. Reason being, they seek to discredit the inerrancy and authority of scripture. I would challenge you on several fronts. First, who gave you your flipping authority to freely squawk out your propaganda at this forum? Certainly not I. And in the name of Jesus, I take authority over any other mundane arrogant and lying spirit that says otherwise. So put that in your pipe and smoke it! I'm about fed up with your propaganda already so if you want to stay at this forum you best shut the hell up. And furthermore...to any others who wish to defend this right to reduce Faith & Belief to a relativistic position, fuck you too! I'll leave this forum in a heartbeat. I don't need any shit from anyone here regarding the inerrancy and authority of scripture. If you don't like it, one of us will go. And I'll let God decide who. The word that the eyes did not see and the hands did not touch, ( / Yhwh ), has come into this world like a Seven-candlestick, in order that those who do not see might see, and those who are believers might keep on being seven times blind. For, if hearing and seeing the word is not enough for you to see then it's being blind twice, isn't it? And if a believer could ever admit that he does not see anything when he works up a strong belief then he could start seeing, but because he says: 'believing, we see!', his blindness increases seven times more ..." Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
CrazyDiamond7aka IAM Lucifer writes: Utter bullocks, as Tangle would say. Im only letting you even talk due to freedom of speech, but you won't clutter up the airwaves for long. If our pagan liberal government ever allowed you people equal time with the genuine preachers, we would know that the end was near. At that point, I would be in favor of shutting all of us up publically...if only to prevent your crap from offending the ears of my family. (Yes, everyone...Phat is having a meltdown this morning...don't ask me why. Something about what Celestial Gourd says strikes a raw nerve in me.) Legion's biggest and most demonic lie ever told in your sacred bible was to convince the World that the means for them to be forgiven implied killing or sacrificing a person or a firstborn son, rather than just forgive. For the World so loved the god(s) to the point of killing a first-born son so that everyone who believed the price for their sins had been paid should believe also in the god. . . . . . Actually the only thing You can do for You to become friends with your heaven, that is within You, or other people's heaven is help the poor who live in your farm, town or city. Yet, people loved the dark of the beliefs in exchange for having the price for their sins paid at the cost of innocent blood because their deeds were evil And the real I Am, being the Truth and Fidelity, would never declare or judge anyone righteous for his belief, which is evidence proving that there is a demonic nature in your sacred bible, that is the part that came from the lying pen of scribes and from the fathers of the beliefs or lies, and from re'Legion the devil himself who was made to be a specialist on camouflages that are made to make believe or simply not let You know what the truth is. That is why there is a good purpose in the existence of a demonic nature in your sacred bible because people are given a chance to think by themselves, or think by their own heads, and even forget about ministers, elders, reverends, and fathers of the beliefs or lies. Also because in heavenly justice, it is like an election with free spontaneous will, people are given the chance to set apart the light from the gloom, all by themselves, without religion or any external influence, and then choose the good and reject the evil...Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Phat,in 2017 writes: Make that a couple of years, apart from the past two weeks. Just to add a bit of context tio the state of my mental health, I have had some deep experiences in church recently where I quite literally burst into tears and cried for several minutes. I conclude based upon that evidence coupled with todays anger that was directed at Celestial Gordo that my emotions are finally being cathartic and raw. Whether or not this is a good thing or not remains to be determined when I see my counselor. Boy will he love these revelations!
What I am afraid of is losing the whole idea that there is help available. I'm not looking for a human support network. I have not even been to church in 8 months. Stile writes: After my recent experience at church, I can only say that my tears were tears of joy for the presence of Jesus. I have less of a connection with the members of the church...to me they are simple people with a childlike faith...which is neither a good nor bad thing...it simply is. I have little in common with them apart from Jesus. My problem is that the folks who I do otherwise feel comfortable around are themselves not believers or at least not extroverted ones. If only I could combine the simplistic trusting love for Jesus with the vibrant, intellectually stimulating minds of the rest of you, I would have my support group. What sort of help are you afraid of losing? My best interpretation of the general "help" you've mentioned so far is some sort of support-network. If you mean something else, perhaps you could try to describe it? Maybe you mean something along the lines of "losing your best friend" (losing the idea of having Jesus/God/religion with you at all times)? The belief in Jesus/God/religion as help is equally valid as the belief in anything else as help.That "anything else" may be real, imaginary, or simply believed (regardless of knowing if it actually exists or not) just as Jesus/God/religion is. Such "help" could be attained from "the universe" or "Zeus" or "the memory of this person I think is amazing" or "the idea of a perfect being" or anything like that.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I would argue that time overtakes us all, but I would also argue that chance is a myth except in terms of strict numerical probability. With me, God is never a numerical probability. God is a certainty. Of course, you then may argue that people only give credit to God when the outcome is favorable. Not too many people this side of Job ever mentioned that we should give credit to God when we fall on our face as well as when we score the winning touchdown.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.~Stile
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