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Author Topic:   The Nonsense of Revelation 13 Economics
PaulK
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Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 135 of 274 (767379)
08-28-2015 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Straightshot
08-28-2015 5:18 PM


Re: Reply button problem
well then, let me make the point without any character judgement.
Your assertion that:
I am a skeptic and a realist and need proof for understanding and acceptance for most anything .... I have it .... no doubt .... the Bible is His Word
Has been demonstrated to be false. You do not have the proof.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Straightshot, posted 08-28-2015 5:18 PM Straightshot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Straightshot, posted 08-28-2015 5:32 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 139 of 274 (767384)
08-28-2015 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Straightshot
08-28-2015 5:32 PM


Re: Reply button problem
Unless you are claiming to have proof that you have held back it seems to be a clear fact.
Certainly you have offered no justification for your assertion that Daniel 11 suddenly switches from talking about Antiochus Epiphanes to talking about somebody else living thousands of years later. Why on earth should a "skeptic and a realist" believe that ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Straightshot, posted 08-28-2015 5:32 PM Straightshot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Straightshot, posted 08-28-2015 5:49 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 141 of 274 (767388)
08-28-2015 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Straightshot
08-28-2015 5:49 PM


Re: Reply button problem
My questions seem to be adequately respectful under the circumstances. Can you answer them ? Even if you refuse I have shown sufficient evidence to cast serious doubt on your claim to have proof.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Straightshot, posted 08-28-2015 5:49 PM Straightshot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Straightshot, posted 08-28-2015 10:38 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 143 of 274 (767413)
08-29-2015 5:15 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by Straightshot
08-28-2015 10:38 PM


this is a debate site
quote:
Believe that I can, but will not for you unless you change your attitude
Why should I believe that you can produce proof when you have already failed to do so?
In a discussion you cannot expect points that appear to be self-evidently false to be unquestioningly accepted. If you are not ready to provide the support, then it is better to refrain from making the assertion.
Also, I will point out that you have still not dealt with the evidence of Daniel 8 identifying the "little horn" as a Diadochi ruler. An omission that I find quite telling.
And what is wrong with my attitude?
quote:
The preteristic view of Bible prophecy attempts to push large portions of future unfulfilled prophecy into the past in order to protect preconceived organizational dogmas
Whereas you clearly attempt to push prophecy into the future to protect your dogmas.
I don't consider that a better approach, nor one that should be needed if Biblical prophecy were genuinely easy to understand and 100% accurate.
quote:
The methodology used is to switch from the literal to the metaphorical/allegorical interpretation when convenient
A methodology I do not employ.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Straightshot, posted 08-28-2015 10:38 PM Straightshot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Straightshot, posted 08-29-2015 7:15 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 145 of 274 (767423)
08-29-2015 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Straightshot
08-29-2015 7:15 AM


Re: this is a debate site
quote:
Yes you do Paulk
[Daniel 8:10]

Now you are just being silly. I interpret the vision given in Daniel 8 (verses 3-12) symbolically. I do not think that goat isliterally a goat, the horns are literally horns or that the little horn literally grows to enormous size and knocks stars down from the sky.
I interpret the explanation of the vision (20-25) as conveying the meaning of the vision
Any sensible person would do the same. There is no shifting between metaphorical/allegorical interpretation from convenience. The shift comes directly in the text.
quote:
Interpret Zechariah 14 for the forum
Quite frankly, to do a proper job of it would take more work than I have time for right now, so I must decline.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Straightshot, posted 08-29-2015 7:15 AM Straightshot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Straightshot, posted 08-29-2015 12:48 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 147 of 274 (767502)
08-30-2015 3:02 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by Straightshot
08-29-2015 12:48 PM


Re: this is a debate site
quote:
The Lord is not a God of confusion
Then why are you so confused about the identity of the "little horn"?
Daniel 8 is really quite clear in identifying him as Greek, associating him with the Diadochi states, and even tells us that the prophecy takes place in the time of the Diadochi states.
You would think that if the "little horn" was a modern Muslim leader we might at least see the rise of Islam alongside Alexander's empire, and an acknowledgement that the Diadochi states fell more than 2000 years earlier.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Straightshot, posted 08-29-2015 12:48 PM Straightshot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Straightshot, posted 08-30-2015 8:00 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 149 of 274 (767506)
08-30-2015 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by Straightshot
08-30-2015 8:00 AM


Re: this is a debate site
A very revealing response.
You will note that 'Straightshot" completely evades the issue of Daniel 8
Obviously he knows that I am telling the truth - and that is why he wants you to ignore me. Or rather to ignore the Bible.
Which really says quite enough about him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Straightshot, posted 08-30-2015 8:00 AM Straightshot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Straightshot, posted 08-30-2015 9:54 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 152 of 274 (767515)
08-30-2015 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by Straightshot
08-30-2015 9:54 AM


Re: this is a debate site
quote:
Daniel 8 is what it is Paulk .... a revelation of the little horn of the time of the end still pending
That's what you say. Daniel 8 however tells us that it is about the time of the Diadochi kingdoms succeeding Alexander. That you refuse to engage with the text in this point tells us all we need to know about you.
quote:
Now .... you give your interpretation of Zechariah 14
If you do not do this, then we will see quite enough about you to begin with
Of course this is just another of your evasive tactics. Zechariah appears to be a more complex work and one I have not studied. But that has nothing to do with Daniel 8, as we both know. Daniel 8 is easier to understand - since the vision is explained - and I have done rather more study relevant to understanding Daniel.
No, it is your refusal to address the text of Daniel 8 with anything but denial that is telling. Daniel 8 is the subject of discussion. Zechariah 14 is an obvious diversion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Straightshot, posted 08-30-2015 9:54 AM Straightshot has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Faith, posted 08-30-2015 11:42 AM PaulK has not replied
 Message 154 by Faith, posted 08-30-2015 12:00 PM PaulK has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 157 of 274 (767537)
08-30-2015 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Straightshot
08-30-2015 1:30 PM


Re: The little horn of Daniel 7:8
quote:
You must study all of the Lord's prophetic Paulk .... all of it fits together perfectly
Since Daniel 8 clearly does not fit into your interpretive scheme you have a problem. And your evasion tells me that you know it.
quote:
Zechariah 14 has much to do with the time of the end and the little horn of Daniel's visions .... but nothing to do with Antiochus IV of the ancient pasT
So we should throw out Daniel 8 because it contradicts your interpretation of Zechariah 14? I don't think so. Even if there were a genuine contradiction - and I don't believe that there is - that wouldn't be a convincing argument.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Straightshot, posted 08-30-2015 1:30 PM Straightshot has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 163 of 274 (767581)
08-30-2015 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Straightshot
08-30-2015 4:11 PM


Re: The little horn of Daniel 7:8
Sorry, but I'm not going to waste time on your rabbit trail
We both know that a straightforward reading of Daniel 8 identifies the "little horn" as a Diadochi monarch living more than 2000 years ago. And obviously you cannot refute that because you keep evading the issue.
So even if you can show that Zechariah 14 contradicts that all you've shown is that either Zechariah or Daniel is wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Straightshot, posted 08-30-2015 4:11 PM Straightshot has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 194 of 274 (781577)
04-05-2016 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by Phat
04-05-2016 10:32 AM


Re: As Long As We Are Making Stuff Up....
quote:
How do we define how accurate the Bible is if we not only acknowledge that Revelation could be a fantasy itself but that we agree that anyone can make the book say what they intend for it to say? Am I to leave the book alone strictly as written? Can I not be allowed to have any opinions,ideas...dare I say prophecies about what it actually means?
Just consider what the Revelation says about that...
Revelation 22:18-19 writes:
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this book;
if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away that person’s share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book
I guess you can speculate about what it might mean, but sticking to the text it doesn't really mention big economic changes, other than restricting trade to those who accept the Mark.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Phat, posted 04-05-2016 10:32 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 198 of 274 (803955)
04-06-2017 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by Davidjay
04-05-2017 5:06 PM


quote:
Revelation 13 describes the chip monetary system which is now being introduced in different ways through out the world...
You should try reading the Bible rather than gullibly falling for the silliness made up by some preachers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Davidjay, posted 04-05-2017 5:06 PM Davidjay has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17838
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 203 of 274 (804081)
04-07-2017 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by Davidjay
04-07-2017 12:13 AM


quote:
Paul K has it right, simple language comprehension in Revelation 13 leaves no doubt that the chip is now HERE and starting to be used by the dumb and dumber.
Oh, I AM right, but you aren't. There is no doubt that Revelation 13 does not describe anything in current use or likely to come into use in the forseeable future. Even the idea that it describes a monetary system has no support in the text - which does not even indicated that the marks have the features a monetary system would require.
Now go away and try reading the Bibke instead of falling for the nonsense invented by idiot preachers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Davidjay, posted 04-07-2017 12:13 AM Davidjay has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by jar, posted 04-07-2017 7:25 AM PaulK has not replied

  
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