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Author Topic:   Waiting on the End Times
sidelined
Member (Idle past 4458 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 16 of 67 (80224)
01-22-2004 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Phat
01-22-2004 11:11 PM


Re: The End has started? Roll the Credits!
Phatboy


Live for the moment in love and peace> I believe that God is in control of my life, so who cares what happens?

Apparently many do care as I discovered by doing a websearch on alltheweb.com I recieved this many responses.

1 - 10 of 1,963,766 Results for biblical end times

If only one percent of these is assumed for the purposes of weeding out of duplicates and really out there websites we are still left with nearly 20000 sites devoted to end time study and comment.

I guess somebody does care.


'Everyone is entitled to his own opinion but not his own facts.'
(Daniel Patrick Moynihan)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Phat, posted 01-22-2004 11:11 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Amlodhi
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 67 (80233)
01-23-2004 12:51 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Azure Moon
01-22-2004 11:11 PM


Re: The End has started?
quote:
Originally posted by Azure Moon

So, how about if you tell me. Just where do you think I fit in the labeling department?


Oh, Azure Moon, I would not want to be guilty of labeling anybody. The extent of my curiousity was only to whether you adhered to any basic written doctrine such as the coptic gnosticism defined in the Nag Hammadi documents.

As to more generic gnosticism, it seems to me that the difficulty would lie in the discernment between "knowing" vs. the mere presumption that one "knows".

Namaste'

Amlodhi


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Azure Moon, posted 01-22-2004 11:11 PM Azure Moon has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Phat, posted 01-23-2004 11:28 AM Amlodhi has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14145
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 18 of 67 (80302)
01-23-2004 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Amlodhi
01-23-2004 12:51 AM


Re: Who Gnows the Truth?
Amlodhi says that, pertaining to gnosticism,
As to more generic gnosticism, it seems to me that the difficulty would lie in the discernment between "knowing" vs. the mere presumption that one "knows".

I would think that a gnostic by definition holds human wisdom as the highest form of truth, whereas an Orthodox Christian holds scripture as the highest form of truth. Historically, many Orthodox Christians act as if they are Gods spokeman on earth.(myself included) This is a human weakness. By definition, we should defer to the Holy Spirit for the final authority. Contrastingly, many scientific truth seekers and gnostics will carefully study and sift through human wisdom and experimentation before proclaiming evidence which supports their original position==which is that Man and human wisdom always occupy the highest position of knowledge. Go figure.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Amlodhi, posted 01-23-2004 12:51 AM Amlodhi has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Amlodhi, posted 01-23-2004 12:14 PM Phat has responded

  
Amlodhi
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 67 (80308)
01-23-2004 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Phat
01-23-2004 11:28 AM


Re: Who Gnows the Truth?
Hello Phatboy,

quote:
Originally posted by Phatboy

. . . many scientific truth seekers and gnostics will carefully study and sift through human wisdom and experimentation before proclaiming evidence which supports their original position. . .


Your statement, above, highlights the distinction I was previously referring to. Although the term "gnostic" is derived from the Greek "gnostikos" which translates to "of knowledge", this is not to be confused with what you have labelled "scientific truth".

gnosis - Esoteric knowledge of spiritual truth held by the ancient Gnostics to be essential to salvation. [Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, tenth ed.]

There is no "scientific truth". But there are explanations based on observation and experiment which are designed to provide the most useful understanding of ourselves and our environment.

This is not the kind of knowledge that is spoken of when the term "gnosis" is used. As described by definition, gnosis is a knowledge of unseen things, religious or spiritual, that can be obtained only by instruction from Gnostic mentors or some form of transcendental revelation.

Thus, my question to Azure Moon as to whether her gnostic understanding was the result of instruction or revelation. And, if the latter, what objective checks and balances are used to insure the validity of such "gnosis".

Namaste'

Amlodhi


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Phat, posted 01-23-2004 11:28 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Phat, posted 01-23-2004 1:08 PM Amlodhi has not yet responded
 Message 21 by Abshalom, posted 01-23-2004 1:37 PM Amlodhi has not yet responded
 Message 23 by Azure Moon, posted 01-23-2004 9:44 PM Amlodhi has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14145
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 20 of 67 (80316)
01-23-2004 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Amlodhi
01-23-2004 12:14 PM


Gnock,Gnock. Who'se there? God.
Amlodhi. You said in your last post that:
As described by definition, gnosis is a knowledge of unseen things, religious or spiritual, that can be obtained only by instruction from Gnostic mentors or some form of transcendental revelation.

Based on this definition, even Christians who claim "Holy Spirit" revelations could be said to be employing Gnostic beliefs. I would suppose that for an Orthodox Christian to differentiate from a Gnostic, Scripture had to be Canonized and validated as an inerrent truth. Otherwise, endless knowledge based upon many ancient sources would continually challenge and redefine Orthodox Belief. This is what actually happens. Perhaps to clarify my position, I will state that my belief is that
1)Scripture has been defined and validated. No new revelations can improve it.
2) Original Sin and spiritual warfare are not a fairy tale but a fact. By definition, the devil can and does make Christians look and act as stupid and ignorant as possible. It is not enough for us as Christians to blame such a devil, however. The fault lies with us.
God has already given us a way out, which is to trust His wisdom.
3) The difference between Gnostic wisdom/revelation and Inspired Scripture and Truth is difficult to quantify and define. Perhaps in this case, we can learn from the early church and the arguments with Gnostics back in "the day." As thinkers, I suppose we can continue to articulate ourselves in this debate as well. I believe in an absolute truth apart from human wisdom. I cannot prove it. I can only live it. Even within the Church there are differences of opinion on what is and is not truth.

[This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-23-2004]


This message is a reply to:
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Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 67 (80322)
01-23-2004 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Amlodhi
01-23-2004 12:14 PM


The Calendar Maya Be Right
Gnosis schmosis. Get with Calendara de Maya.

http://webexhibits.org/calendars/calendar-mayan.html offers access to info on the accuracy of the Mayan calendar. The site is subdivision of a larger Web site offering information on several calendars if you're interested in measuring time.

This site: http://www.exodus2006.com/6maya.htm tells us: "It may just be coincidence, but the Mayan calendar was drawn up in such a way that it ends completely in 2012 and, as we have seen, this is also the year of the third comet in the Bible Code."

So, I am assuming that we are all talking about the same End Times here.

Just to make sure of the structure and accuracy of the Mayan Calendar, you may access "The How and Why of the Mayan End Date in 2012 CE." at http://www.levity.com/eschaton/Why2012.html where you learn about the "Short Count", "Long Count", "Mayan Sacred Astral Tree", "Procession", and other data relating to the Mayan Countdown to the End Times.

Now to get information about the Good News relevant to the Mayan End Times, go to: http://paulapeterson.com/Mayan_Calendar.html which advises: "The date specified in the calendar - Winter Solstice in the year 2012 - does not mark the end of the world. Many outside people writing about the Mayan calendar sensationalize this date, but they do not know. The ones who know are the indigenous elders who are entrusted with keeping the tradition. Humanity will continue, but in a different way. Material structures will change. From this we will have the opportunity to be more human."

The good news, however, is tempered with the bad: "The North and South Poles are both breaking up. The level of the water in the oceans is going to rise. But at the same time land in the ocean, especially near Cuba, is also going to rise." Boy, ain't it great to know that Cuban cigars will still be available during the End Times!

But the same site advises us against hedonism during the Mayan End Times: "Eat wisely. Pay attention to what you are taking into your body. Learn to preserve food, and to conserve energy. Learn some good breathing techniques, so you have mastery of your breath. Go to the sacred places of the earth to pray for peace. One simple but effective prayer technique is to light a white or baby-blue colored candle."

I don't know about the rest of you, but it's gotta be baby blue candles for me.

Now in a more metaphysical vein, over at the Prophet's Manual http://www.prophetsmanual.com/content/index.cfm?navID=15&itemID=15 we learn the following:

"The end of [the Mayan Calendar] that falls on winter solstice 2012 is [the] biblical apocalypse or judgment day. [It's the] same event described in all 'mythological' or spiritual teachings of the past period under different names. In Egypt it’s the time of Zep Tepi or return to the beginning – original point of creation that’s periodically repeated through cyclical nature of time in order to transform old into new. It’s very nature of space/time as described in rising of phoenix (benu) bird from its own ashes. In Sumer and Babylonia same event is referred to as 'times of crossing' associated with passing of 11th planet (Niburu), which is also depicted in Egyptian 'mythology' and elsewhere. (There's those pesky Nephilim and Anakim again.)

"Evolution is spiraling double helix that changes in quantum sequences and time in between different sequences that allows for process of learning and maturity."

Now see. That last little tidbit of valuable information was not even available to me here at Evolution vs. Creation! Finally, I am enlightened regarding the true nature of evolution. And had to go to some wacky metaphysical Website to find it.

So basically, I'm left pondering what to pack for End Times. Seeds, beef jerky, Tang, clean socks, hip boots ... and, oh yeah ... weapons, ammunition, tobacco, bibles, alcohol, glass beads, mirrors, amulets, and silver, right?

I guess if you're well-funded, you can find a good survival manual here: http://www.armageddonbooks.com/lahaye.html. But I want to get by a cheap as possible. I mean, what if Stephen's 2006 and Pacal's 2012 end times turn out to be bogus like all those previous apocalyptic prophesies have?

DIS IS IT: http://www.basegear.com/ch8.html << cheap and to the point.

Peace.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Amlodhi, posted 01-23-2004 12:14 PM Amlodhi has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5512
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 22 of 67 (80327)
01-23-2004 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Abshalom
01-23-2004 1:37 PM


Re: The Calendar Maya Be Right
So basically, I'm left pondering what to pack for End Times. Seeds, beef jerky, Tang, clean socks, hip boots...

We can't overstate the importance of those hip boots. Chest-high waders would be even better. Eight years away, and it's already getting pretty deep....

This message is a reply to:
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Azure Moon
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 67 (80407)
01-23-2004 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Amlodhi
01-23-2004 12:14 PM


Re: Who Gnows the Truth?
Amlodhi: Thus, my question to Azure Moon as to whether her gnostic understanding was the result of instruction or revelation. And, if the latter, what objective checks and balances are used to insure the validity of such "gnosis".

***

Hi Amlodhi,

The gnostic understandings? Awkward wording by the way. I had an NDE. I died one night for just over an hour. And after I got through being totally P O 'ed about being put back into this hell hole called earth life... I discovered I came back a seeker. I wanted more and more knowledge and the traditional churches didn't have anything I needed.

I accept no gnostic teachings from anybody unless I can get 3 confirmation's from 3 separate sources stating really plain the same thing. Two sources and it's out. Any hint of human manipulation and it's out. Is that what you mean?


Azure Moon
Free-Thinkers: “Those who, abandoning the religious truths and moral dictates of the Christian Revelation, and accepting no dogmatic teaching on the ground of authority, base their beliefs on the unfettered findings of reason alone.” Catholic Encyclopedia.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Amlodhi
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 67 (80414)
01-23-2004 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Azure Moon
01-23-2004 9:44 PM


Re: Who Gnows the Truth?
Hello Azure Moon,

quote:
Originally posted by Azure Moon

The gnostic understandings? Awkward wording by the way.


Yes, it might seem so. But it was designed to underscore the distinction. I'm usually less interested in the fact that people say they "know" (gnosis) than I am in why (understanding) they say they "know" it.

quote:
Azure Moon:

I accept no gnostic teachings from anybody unless I can get 3 confirmation's from 3 separate sources stating really plain the same thing.


What do you consider to be valid sources?

Namaste'

Amlodhi


This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 67 (80419)
01-23-2004 11:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
01-22-2004 2:10 AM


The Armageddon watch involves a knowledge of all the end time prophecies and a working knowledge of major historic events. The reason deluded folks come up with all these bogus interpretations and ideas is that they think you can go to this smorgasboard of prophetic stuff in the Bible and make their own prophetic salad to suit their palate/taste. Then too, you don't pick this text or that text and determine a conclusion on the lone text. Only after you do lots of homework and acquire an academic overview of the whole enchalada will you come up with the correct mix.

There are a number of events which determine when the real last days are to come into focus before one can expect Armageddon. They are not all in place yet, so I can quite safely guarantee Armageddon will not be this year or next. Nor will the return of Jesus or what is known as the rapture or gathering up of the Christians by the angels to meet Jesus in the clouds. The majority of evangelical Christians would not agree with me on this, as they believe this rapture is imminent/can occur any time. I have offered $1000 to some ministers and prophecy teachers as well as some Christian friends who teach and believe this popular idea of imminency, but so far have no takers. I will not offer a reward on line because of security reasons, but would welcome a debate with any Christian who would like to debate this on line.

The following are a list of events that MUST occur subsequent to the generation of Jesus before Armageddon:
1. Gentile occupation of the land known as Palestine
2. Nation of Israel reinstated. (fulfilled in 1948)
3. Gentile occupation of Jerusalem ended. (fulfilled 1967)
4. Global warming
5. Gospel preached world wide to all nations.
6. Ability to see things remotely around the world from one spot (TV)
7. Global monetary system based on numbers and marks rather than gold and silver.
8. Increasing emergence of cloudiness and violent weather patterns.
9. World travel
10 The ability to destroy a significant city within the timeframe of one hour. (see item 14)
ll. Darkening by one third of the sun and moon, causing the moon to appear as blood red. (I believe this will be effected by super drought conditions world wide to the degree that much evaporation will ensue. There is a statement in Revelation about the wind not blowing for a space of time also. This could be a major factor in effecting drought. It is my belief that a the world will again become to be in a terrarium like canopy state as I believe it was before the flood.
l2. Emergence of Russia, northern Europe allied with the Arab block as the pre-eminent invaders of Armageddon. This means the US must diminish in influence and power before Armageddon. (See Ezekiel 38,39)
13. A religious dominant power which is globally powerful enough to force worship before a speaking image to the majority of the planet's citizens with the consequence of disobedience as beheading. This I believe to be Islam and the speaking image 2 way TV with spot checks for praying five times daily as is now required in many nations, but not yet enforced via electonic media. See Revelation 13.
14. Vatican City demolished/burnt to the ground in the space of one hour. (See Revelation 17 and 18.
15. Gradual increase in all kinds of disasters, both man made and natural.
16. Gradual increase in the size of hail to eventually reach one hundred lb hailstones by the time of Armageddon. Rev 16 (near end of chapter)
17. Dramatic increase of knowledge.
18. Homosexual revolution.
19. Shabily dressed women in Israel (indicative of women in general). We older folks know more about that as we know how this has changed dramatically over the last 70 years, the big change beginning in the hippy 60's. See Isaiah 3
20 World wide drought and men scorched with heat.
21. World wide economic depression.
22. Global moral decay.
23. Global holocaust of Christians (Already happening in some parts such as Sudan and as have already happened in Europe and Russia via Bolshevik Revolution, etc. Global increase of hatred toward Christ/Christians/Christianity/Bible.
24. Departure (apostacy) of many Christians who defect the religion and rise of antichrist/prominen religious person able to deceive by miracle and who hates Christians/Christianity.
25. Signs in the sun and in the sky.
26. A continental coastal break off of mountain/mountains which causes such a tidal disaster as to destroy a third of the ships in that ocean. (Or possibly a meteor)
27. Something happens weather wise to effect a millenial change in weather to the point that eventually the reaper will be able to overtake the sower and men will begin to live much longer lives again.
28. Two prominent men of God whom the world hates will be able to effect world drought to the degree that the whole world rejoices and sees their bodies lie in Jerusalem after they are finally killed.
29. The relatively few Christians still alive will indeed be raptured
eventually after what is called the tribulation and after the darkening of the sun and moon and before the seven bowls of God's wrath are poured upon rebellious earth. See Mark 13:24-28.

After the seven bowls of wrath (see Revelation 16), finally we have the return of Jesus with his saints to earth to rule an reign for a millenium. This 2nd advent to earth is when Armageddon ensues, so folks it's not here yet, nor will it be here until the [i]unfinished business[i] is complete on earth. Brace yourselves. The waves are gona get rougher as we go from here, for THE END TIMES ARE UPON PLANET EARTH AND HAVE BEEN FOR NEARLY A CENTURY already, beginning with the Bolshevik revolution/tribulation (which btw, is not for only 7 years).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by sidelined, posted 01-22-2004 2:10 AM sidelined has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by sidelined, posted 01-23-2004 11:43 PM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 34 by Azure Moon, posted 01-25-2004 12:44 PM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 36 by docpotato, posted 01-29-2004 4:19 PM Buzsaw has responded

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 4458 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 26 of 67 (80420)
01-23-2004 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Buzsaw
01-23-2004 11:24 PM


buzsaw.

You could have saved yourself a whack of typing and just said you do not have a clue.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Buzsaw, posted 01-23-2004 11:24 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 67 (80421)
01-23-2004 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by sidelined
01-23-2004 11:43 PM


You could have saved us all a lot of time by not asking for our opinion in the first place.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by sidelined, posted 01-23-2004 11:43 PM sidelined has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 29 by sidelined, posted 01-24-2004 1:50 AM Buzsaw has responded

  
Rand Al'Thor
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 67 (80431)
01-24-2004 1:23 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Buzsaw
01-23-2004 11:56 PM


Ya, if only the president would do that. Then it would be easy to boot him out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Buzsaw, posted 01-23-2004 11:56 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 4458 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 29 of 67 (80434)
01-24-2004 1:50 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Buzsaw
01-23-2004 11:56 PM


See that ye be not troubled
buzsaw

From my original post.

I would like to see if any of the creationists have a clue as to when Armeggedon will finally arrive.

As you can see I am not asking for opinion.I am asking if you know when it will finally arrive.The nearest you come to anything remotely resembling a time line was this.

There are a number of events which determine when the real last days are to come into focus before one can expect Armageddon. They are not all in place yet, so I can quite safely guarantee Armageddon will not be this year or next

Then you go into convoluted items of prediction and assumptions.You do not specify the reasoning you used to arrive at your conclusions, any of which are not particularly convincing in those instances you claim they have already occured and in those you claim have yet to occur some are outrageous.

And at the end of it you still could not fulfill the request I made originally.


'Everyone is entitled to his own opinion but not his own facts.'
(Daniel Patrick Moynihan)

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by apostolos, posted 01-24-2004 4:20 PM sidelined has responded
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apostolos
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 67 (80496)
01-24-2004 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by sidelined
01-24-2004 1:50 AM


2 + oranges =?
I am not one to jump in the middle of someone else's fight. However, several things prompt my posting at this time. First, as I reviewed this thread, I began developing an idea of how I might respond. Second, I saw Buzz's post which covered what I would say and went beyond in regards to thoroughness with detail. Third, sidelined clearly missed the point of what Buzz was saying. This may be because of a failure to properly communicate the idea, or it could be for some other reason. Regardless I will attempt to synopsize Buzz post with the position I hold to.

In answer to the question: "when Armeggedon will finally arrive" the answer, from a normal, rational, contextual, gramatical, historical interpretation of the Bible (this means no Bible codes or other such wacky stuff that is clearly outside the realm in which the Lord intended scripture to be understood) is clear. There is no answer. I am not just saying "I personally don't know". I am saying that you don't know along with me, and no human being can ever know. The main reason for this is that God created and now sustains all of existence for His purposes. Those purposes involve us but we do not control them. When He has finished what He is doing with the earth the Bible says He will melt the elements with fervent heat (2 Peter 3:8-10). It is true that this will be preceeded by the sudden disappearance of multitudes of people who are the genuine children of God according to John 1:12,13 and 3:16. Some time after this He will return to earth to rule as king for a literal 1000 years, and His coronation day will come on the heels of the event reffered to as "Armeggedon". Since it is on God's timetable alone, and He is not sharing that information, it is not possible for any human being anywhere to ever unearth a date for such activity. Furthermore, the record of Revelation seems to indicate that even when God comes in the flesh (the resurrected Christ in a glorified body) to reign on earth, those who fight against Him will not even believe that it is God even though they are face to face with Him.

So, to answer the question clearly and without confusion at the expense of redunancy: It is not now, nor was ever, nor will ever be possible to predict (i.e. to declare before the actual event) the physical return of the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ to the earth by any means that can be, has been, or ever will be imagined by man, machine, or any other created thing.

Russ

P.S. - to be thoroughly clear the answer to the question is infinitely more impossible to determine then the solution to the mathmatical problem stated as the title of this post.

[edited to clarify seeming contradiction]

[This message has been edited by apostolos, 01-24-2004]


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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