Creationists:: What would convince you that evolution has happened ?

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Originally posted by Jet:
Typical response from a darkened mind.

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I wonder what you could mean by this: was mine a typical response? Perhaps, but is that not because it was a fair question?
It is, after all, in essence the very question asked by Jeremiah - "Righteous art thou, O Lord, when I plead with thee; yet let me talk with thee of thy judgments: Wherefore doth the way of the wicked prosper?"
And are these not the same doubts endured by the Psalmist in Psalm 73? "When I thought to know this, it was too painful for me; Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end."
Both Jeremiah and the Psalmist found answers to their doubts eventually but not after long mental struggle.Look at what you are doing, Jet, and think hard about it. Rather than trying to explain, rather than helping to enlighten minds, you are turning your back, in arrogance and smug conceit. Yet these you call darkened minds are in the same pain and confusion that Jeremiah and the Psalmist suffered. Remember also that Jesus abjured us to use our own moral judgement, (Luke 12:57 And why do you not judge for yourselves what is right?)You should be ashamed of your petty, ignorant and arrogant answer to genuine doubts.So will you answer my question? Why does your God perform miracles to feed the 5000 and provide wine for a wedding, but will not intervene to save the raped and murdered child?

By requesting an answer you assume that I know the mind of God and that I understand His purpose in all things mysterious!That causes me to question if you truly are able to recognize who is petty, ignorant, and arrogant.

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Originally posted by Jet:
By requesting an answer you assume that I know the mind of God and that I understand His purpose in all things mysterious!

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That causes me to question if you truly are able to recognize who is petty, ignorant, and arrogant.

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That's not implied by my question. What I am looking for is why you hold your opinions and what you make of it all.What do you say to the issue of evil. Have you thought about it? Does it trouble you that your god allows evil to flourish on this earth even though he could intervener? If not, why not?For example, you clearly think the rape and murder of children is despicable - have you never wondered why your god does not prevent it? If you have wondered, what answer did you find?

[QUOTE]I refer to the crimes against little children, kidnapped, raped, and then brutally murdered, their bodies discarded like yesterdays trash. If that is the kind of world that you, or anyone else, truly desires to put your faith in then I pity your kind most above all creatures. I would not care to believe in such a world of lawlessness where there is no true consequence of action. That is why I must ultimately reject and totally deny any acceptance of such an inhumane concept as the theory of evolution. Perhaps it is the way I was raised, though I seriously doubt that is the reason I feel this way. In fact, despite my upbringing, I have far too much empathy in my being to ever pay homage to such a barbaric concept as the Godless theory of evolution. There is a reason some people refer to this concept as "EVILUTION"! No thanks, I hold to a belief that offers Hope! I'll Stick To The Word! I fully expect, and rightfully demand, judgement for the wicked! Enough Said!!! [/B][/QUOTE]OK, if you think that the reason little kids are victimized is because of the ToE, you are really, truly a nutcase.It's nice to know that the reason you are a Christian is because you have a strong desire for revenge.

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[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 03-17-2002]

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Originally posted by Peter:
Just a twist on the same question that runs through the
whole forum.

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What would it take to convince you as a creationist, that evolution
has occurred ?

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If your answer is nothing ... leave the debate, your not interested
in finding the truth only preaching your belief.

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Any other input would be read with interest.

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Just had a quick run through this thread, and
still feel it's an important question.The creationist responses (apart from 'Burn in Hell Heathen
Scum!!! ) are basically::'I would need undeniable proof.'... not very helpful.Is there a SINGLE piece of supporting evidence that would
make a creationist think 'Well, that could happen.'My gut feeling about why there has not been a single point(or
even list of points) is that it's a bit scary in case someone
points to evidence for that very thing.In the sister thread (and earlier in this thread) I've pointed
to some things that would make me doubt evolutionary theory ...
and I haven't seen any pointers to evidence that they have
ocurred.

My answer to the question of why god doesn't take away suffering is that this would be taking away our freedom as human beings with free will. The only reason there is suffering in this world is because humans (Adam and Eve) were created with the POSSIBILITY of suffering by god, which they ACTUALIZED when they ate the forbidden fruit. When they chose to sin, the consequences were suffering. Suffering isn't punishment, it is a natural consequence of the choice to sin.And think about this. If god takes away the suffering of one person, he must take away the suffering of everybody, regardless of whether or not they thank him for it, or deserve it. He can't just take away a little of the suffering, because where do you draw the line? This is like saying, "It's ok if five jews die in a holocaust but not six, or 50,000 but not 50,001." When you take the statement "a little" and apply it to real-life examples like this, you begin to see how absurd it is.The reason people often equate evolution with atheism is because if life came about by chance, then there was no need for an outside creator to intervene, and if there is no outside creator, then there are no morals, no universal truths, no right and wrong. Everybody's politically correct, everybody's views are just as good as somebody else's. Most evolutionists have no intention of breeding such a lawless school of thought, but it often inadvertently does.

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Originally posted by thatstretchyguy:
1)The only reason there is suffering in this world is because humans (Adam and Eve) were created with the POSSIBILITY of suffering by god, which they ACTUALIZED when they ate the forbidden fruit. When they chose to sin, the consequences were suffering. Suffering isn't punishment, it is a natural consequence of the choice to sin.

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2)a)The reason people often equate evolution with atheism is because if life came about by chance, then there was no need for an outside creator to intervene,

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b)...and if there is no outside creator, then there are no morals, no universal truths, no right and wrong. Everybody's politically correct, everybody's views are just as good as somebody else's.

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c)Most evolutionists have no intention of breeding such a lawless school of thought, but it often inadvertently does.

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1)Excuse me but given that eating the fruit gave them "the knowledge of good and evil" how without any prior knowledge of good and evil could they make a free will informed choice to sin or not????If they only had the requisite knowldge to asses their actions as sinfull after the fact it seems odd that a omnibenevolent God would punish them....Don`t you think?2)a)If you inserted abiogenesis instead of evolution you would have a sentence that made sense as it is you don`t....b)Assumes that there are universal morals, that said putative universal morals can only come from a supernatural source, that the internal consistency of a set of moral guidelines can only be examined with reference to theology and that things cannot be right or wrong in a secular fashion but only in the context of religious doctrine...Thats quite a bunch of assertions, anytime you feel like giving some sort of supporting argument feel free, knock yerself out kid...c)Hmmm lets see about four times as many people per thousand capita regularly attend chuch in thew US as in the UK...From this we postulate that people in the US are 4 times as religious (as measured on the regular chuch attendance scale) as the populace of the UK....Riddle me this which of these societies has the highest rate of murder?I`ll give you a hint it ends with S...Given that one of the ten commandments is thou shalt not murder and that the US is 4 times as religious as the UK we would expect to see a rate of about a quarter that of the UK.... We don`t therefore we reject the hypothesis that morality is linked to religious faith....Oh and look into secular humanism sometime if you really think that Atheism is necessarily amoral...

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[This message has been edited by joz, 03-31-2002]

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Originally posted by thatstretchyguy:
[b]My answer to the question of why god doesn't take away suffering is that this would be taking away our freedom as human beings with free will. The only reason there is suffering in this world is because humans (Adam and Eve) were created with the POSSIBILITY of suffering by god, which they ACTUALIZED when they ate the forbidden fruit. When they chose to sin, the consequences were suffering. Suffering isn't punishment, it is a natural consequence of the choice to sin.[/QUOTE]

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Don't you think that it is quite a bit more likely that the Adam and Eve/Garden of Eden story was made up to explain why there is suffering in the world?

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And think about this. If god takes away the suffering of one person, he must take away the suffering of everybody, regardless of whether or not they thank him for it, or deserve it.

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Why doesn't God take away the suffering of little children, then, who couldn't have possibly sinned yet?

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He can't just take away a little of the suffering, because where do you draw the line? This is like saying, "It's ok if five jews die in a holocaust but not six, or 50,000 but not 50,001." When you take the statement "a little" and apply it to real-life examples like this, you begin to see how absurd it is.

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Your God sounds less and less powerful, and more and more spiteful, egotistical, and petty, the more you write about him.

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The reason people often equate evolution with atheism is because if life came about by chance,

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The ToE doesn't deal with the origin of life. It deals with life once it got here.

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then there was no need for an outside creator to intervene, and if there is no outside creator, then there are no morals, no universal truths, no right and wrong.

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This is a common logical mistake.

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Here is a logic exercise for you:

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Could God declare it a moral act to rape and pilliage at will?

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If you say no, then morals, by definition, do not come from God, because if they did, then God could declare ANYTHING moral.

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Morals come from humans, not God.

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Also, if it was true that a lack of belief in God meant a lack of morals or a sense of right and wrong, then we should find the prisons packed with Atheists. Guess what? They are filled with believers, not Atheists.

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[QUOTE]Everybody's politically correct, everybody's views are just as good as somebody else's. Most evolutionists have no intention of breeding such a lawless school of thought, but it often inadvertently does.[/b]

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Uh, I don't think so, and I don't think you can back any of your claims up with evidence. I have yet to hear of roving bands of lawless evolutionist/Atheists raping and pillaging throughout the land.Look, most Americans don't even understand the ToE AT ALL, and most Americans believe in God, so I don't understand where you get your idea that immoral behavior stems from a single, extremely well-supported theory of Biology which seeks to explain the diversity of life on this planet.You have an inaccurate cartoon-image of the ToE. I suggest doing a bit of reading to familiarize yourself with the basics of evolutionary biology before you attempt to criticize it. Here are some links to help you: http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-qa.html
http://www.skepdic.com/science.html
http://www.skepdic.com/creation.html------------------
"We will still have perfect freedom to hold contrary views of our own, but to simply
close our minds to the knowledge painstakingly accumulated by hundreds of thousands
of scientists over long centuries is to deliberately decide to be ignorant and narrow-
minded."-Steve Allen, from "Dumbth"

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Originally posted by thatstretchyguy:
My answer to the question of why god doesn't take away suffering is that this would be taking away our freedom as human beings with free will. The only reason there is suffering in this world is because humans (Adam and Eve) were created with the POSSIBILITY of suffering by god, which they ACTUALIZED when they ate the forbidden fruit. When they chose to sin, the consequences were suffering. Suffering isn't punishment, it is a natural consequence of the choice to sin.

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So even on a strict reading the ball is back in the almighty's court - why create human beings with the possibility of suffering. Especially why do so with perfect foreknowledge that the suffering will be actualized? What if Adam and Eve had not fallen - would the life of their descendents be not worth living? Would they be unfulfilled? Unhappy? Would they not know the love of God?
Presumably if there was only the possibility of suffering, there was the possibility of not suffering - why did God not so arrange it? And why should all humanity be condemned for Adam and Eve's choice?
In your scenario, why do humans and animals suffer from natural causes? Infants, too young to consciously or actively sin, can suffer in the most terrible ways from diseases and natural disasters. God may feel he cannot interfere in our causing suffering to each other without restricting free will, but he could certainly keep us from natural harm.
Why, for example, were we not created as cherubim, seraphim or angels? They live in the presence of God in heaven (where doctrine teaches there to be no suffering, though I guess that may be wrong) but they have free will: Lucifer exercised his rather dramatically. Suffering and free will do not go together for angels - in particular because they are in the immediate presence and knowledge of God and cna accept him with direct knowledge, something which is denied to human beings: we have to struggle by on faith, and on the misleading, obscure or inadequate testimony of human interlocutors, which is often misused for sinful ends.[b] [QUOTE]The reason people often equate evolution with atheism is because if life came about by chance, then there was no need for an outside creator to intervene,[/b][/QUOTE]Evolution, strictly speaking, has nothing to do with the origin of life. But even a naturalistic approach to the origin of life does not preclude the existence, or metpahysical and moral significance of a transcendent God.[b] [QUOTE]and if there is no outside creator, then there are no morals, no universal truths, no right and wrong.[/b][/QUOTE]This does not follow. It has been pointed since the time of Plato (in his "Euthyphro") that morality does not come from a personal God or Gods. If something is good only because a personal God wills it, then there is no need to worship him for goodness, because anything he does is, by definition, good. On the other hand, if you are say that there are things (the slow torture of children, say) that a personal God would never declare to be good, then there is a standard of morality which the personal God also adheres to.[b] [QUOTE]Most evolutionists have no intention of breeding such a lawless school of thought, but it often inadvertently does.[/b][/QUOTE]You say this "often" happens. Can you give some examples of evolutionary theory leading to moral relativism? I don't mean here the hijacking of Darwinism by racist groups to support their agendas - unless you can show that their morality is relativistic. Most fascist organizations have a pretty strict, if disgusting, code of moral absolutism.

Originally posted by Mister Pamboli:What do you say to the issue of evil.***What's to say? Evil obviously exists or there would be no need for laws to punish an offender.***MP: Have you thought about it? Does it trouble you that your god allows evil to flourish on this earth even though he could intervener? If not, why not?***I, like most everyone else who has lived, have wondered why evil things happen. That God either does or does not intervene is irrelevant, IMHO, for if I accept He is all-encompassing, (and I do), then I do not rack my brain with questions that have been answered in scripture.***MP: For example, you clearly think the rape and murder of children is despicable - have you never wondered why your god does not prevent it? If you have wondered, what answer did you find?***As I have stated, yes, I have wondered. As I have also stated, this, and a multiplicity of similar questions are answered in scripture, and if one is sincerely diligent in searching the scriptures, they will find the answer to every question that is relevant to mankind and his relationship to God.*** Shalom Jet------------------
"KNOWLEDGE IS POWER! FEED YOUR BRAIN!".....................Jet"The scientist's pursuit of the past ends in the moment of creation. This is an exceedingly strange development, unexpected by all but the theologians. Now we would like to pursue that inquiry farther back in time, but the barrier to further progress seems insurmountable.It is not a matter of another year, another decade of work, another measurement, or another theory; at this moment it seems as though science will never be able to raise the curtain on the mystery of creation.For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow

he question I originally asked was what, if any,
evidencde would make a creationist say
'Well, maybe evolution could happen.'The thread seems to have divolved into a discussion on
morality ... wirthy in its own right, but evading the
original question I think.

quote:

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Originally posted by Peter:
he question I originally asked was what, if any,
evidencde would make a creationist say
'Well, maybe evolution could happen.'

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The thread seems to have divolved into a discussion on
morality ... wirthy in its own right, but evading the
original question I think.

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***Perhaps "evading" is not the proper term to use. At least not in regards to the questions I was asked, or the answers that I gave.*** Shalom Jet------------------
Please limit signatures to at most a couple hundred characters. --Percy

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Originally posted by Jet:

***Perhaps "evading" is not the proper term to use. At least not in regards to the questions I was asked, or the answers that I gave.***

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Shalom

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Jet

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How about: "... just running away" then ?
What do you call- not answering a direct question by posing non-sequitors ?Is there something you fear, so you do not answer honestly ?
If you do not fear the question asked, perhaps you fear the answer...so you do not answer it.The fact remains, you HAVEN'T answered it and you continue to try to change the subject entirely.How telling.jeff------------------
"Freedom of Religion" equates to Freedom -FROM- those religions we find unbelievable.

Schraf writes:
OK, if you think that the reason little kids are victimized is because of the ToE, you are really, truly a nutcase.***You got that from reading my post and you think "I'M" the nutcase? Whatever dear. Believe whatever makes you feel comfortable.*** Shalom Jet------------------
There is for me powerful evidence that there is something going on behind it all....It seems as though somebody has fine-tuned nature's numbers to make the Universe....The impression of design is overwhelming.Professor Paul Davies