Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,806 Year: 3,063/9,624 Month: 908/1,588 Week: 91/223 Day: 2/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 358 of 716 (804495)
04-10-2017 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 357 by kbertsche
04-10-2017 1:15 PM


Thanks for that reminder. I'd completely forgotten it's the root of Nazarene.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 357 by kbertsche, posted 04-10-2017 1:15 PM kbertsche has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 366 of 716 (804613)
04-11-2017 4:48 PM


Some hits and some misses?
Theodoric writes:
Bethlehem is about a degree off of 31.68
Looks to me like it's a lot closer than that, as good as exact given that the town itself takes up some space:
Google page gives the number 31.7054
However, I don't see how the latitude is arrived at from Micah. The diagram on DJ's page showing the relationships between the towns in the area is interesting though. That sort of thing is interesting, but I don't see how it comes from Micah.
(Something he didn't point out is also very interesting about the towns and that is their names: "Bethlehem" means "house of bread" and Jesus called himself "the bread that came down from heaven;" then "Nazarene" and "Nazareth" are based on the Hebrew word for "Branch" as kbertsche pointed out, which is one of the names of the Messiah in the OT.)
But there are things in DavidJay's discussion that don't add up and I don't mean just mathematically:
  • He uses Daniel 9 to arrive at Jesus' birthday, but that prophecy is always used to arrive at the day Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the donkey, declaring Himself to be the promised King. If DJ is correcting that calculation it needs to be spelled out.
  • Also, he claims that The Branch refers to a son of David who is not the Messiah, but clearly he has to be the Messiah, if only for the reason that such a prophetic name wouldn't be wasted on anyone less.
  • And he confuses the two olive trees that symbolize the two witnesses of Revelation with the Messiah.
I can't read the links so I can't follow the argument beyond this, but it seems to me that while he has some interesting stuff he also has some errors.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 367 by Theodoric, posted 04-11-2017 5:58 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 368 by Theodoric, posted 04-11-2017 6:16 PM Faith has replied
 Message 369 by kbertsche, posted 04-11-2017 6:35 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 370 of 716 (804622)
04-11-2017 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 368 by Theodoric
04-11-2017 6:16 PM


Re: Some hits and some misses?
I know it's easy to load Google Earth but I haven't done it on this computer yet. I think I'll just take your word for it.
I think what we have here is that DavidJay is being inexact about the word "exact." He might be making an interesting case if he allowed things to be off by a partial degree.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 368 by Theodoric, posted 04-11-2017 6:16 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 375 by Theodoric, posted 04-11-2017 11:25 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 371 of 716 (804625)
04-11-2017 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 369 by kbertsche
04-11-2017 6:35 PM


Re: Some hits and some misses?
Yes, good points, and this sort of measuring game tends to bore me -- unless the evidence is really really good, and even then I'm not interested in working it out for myself. though if the evidence IS good it could be persuasive for a certain kind of mind. Unfortunately it's not all that good in this case. And yes the pyramid is indeed a giveaway.
Nevertheless there are some interesting things in prophecy (no, not Bible codes) which can get awfully precise - such as the three-and-a-half-year number that shows up in so many different places. I'm curious about that but not curious enough to spend any time sorting it out. Besides it's probably not going to be clear what it means except to the people who will live through it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 369 by kbertsche, posted 04-11-2017 6:35 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 372 by kbertsche, posted 04-11-2017 7:38 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 373 of 716 (804633)
04-11-2017 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 372 by kbertsche
04-11-2017 7:38 PM


prophecy still to be fulfilled
Yes, I agree that we can understand the big picture of Bible prophecy (there will be lots of problems, rebellions, uprisings, but Jesus will win in the end and make everything right). And I think we can understand some of the details fairly well (7 years of trouble, with the last 3 1/2 being especially bad).
Hm, so are you saying you're a Pre-Tribulation Rapture believer?
So you then at least roughly accept the Ussher/Daniel 9 prophecy?
But I don't think we'll understand lots of other details until after they occur (who/what is the antichrist? The mark? The beast? The great city? The four horsemen?). As Daniel records, many of these end-times details are "sealed up" until the end (Dan 12:4).
I.ve seen some good arguments for the Pre Trib point of view, but I also like to listen to Chris Pinto's radio shows (Noise of Thunder radio) and he often spells out the Historicist eschatology which he imputes to the Reformers. He has a show up I haven't heard yet on the four horsemen. I think I'll check it out after I write this.;
He has made the case for the Reformers' view of the Antichrist as the papacy, which I already thought from other clues, but also for the papacy WITH Mohammed as the two legs of the Roman Empire in the Nebuchadnezzar statue of Daniel 2, two antichrists (Islam of course denies that "Jesus Christ has come in the flesh"), and although there are other antichrists to be considered I keep coming back to that. He also quoted some Reformer or other on the Mark as connected to confirmation in the Catholic Church -- there are surprisingly good reasons to think that including its being called the mark in Catholic literature, but it's been a long time since he's said anything about that and I may not remember it rightly.
The Historicist view sees End Times events as ongoing throughout history, not one-time events that appear and then are over, although I think a future final expression of them is implied.
If the Pre Trib Rapture is true then the Antichrist is to be revealed after the Church is gone. abe: I think this could still be true even if the Historicist view of the Reformers is correct that he was already revealed -- I think in 606 when Phocas declared the Bishop of Rome to be Universal Bishop. /abe
Well, that's off topic I guess.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.
2Cr 10:4-5 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God...
Political Correctness is Cultural Marxism

This message is a reply to:
 Message 372 by kbertsche, posted 04-11-2017 7:38 PM kbertsche has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 374 of 716 (804653)
04-11-2017 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 372 by kbertsche
04-11-2017 7:38 PM


four horsemen
Very interesting, I heard the radio show on the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse and I think I now have a new understanding. I've always felt ambivalent about the identify of the first horseman on the white horse, just doesn't seem like an Antichrist figure as he's usually interpreted to be, and Pinto says he'd had to rethink it too after reading the Reformers.
They generally see him as some version of God or God's power or the gospel itself or Christ, going out to conquer with a bow. But no arrows, although some think the arrows are implied. I think now it's a good image for the gospel which conquers the heart or spirit with no arrows or invisible arrows -- fits "the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God..."
The other horsemen are then interpreted as God's judgments that have followed wherever the gospel is rejected, down through the centuries. Although they could represent the fury of Satan as the gospel does go forth and conquer what he thinks of as his own world.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 372 by kbertsche, posted 04-11-2017 7:38 PM kbertsche has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 383 of 716 (804705)
04-12-2017 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 380 by Davidjay
04-12-2017 2:12 AM


Re: Giza Location designed
I was going to write about Giza's exact position. Study it, know how and why it was located exactly there and not at a random site.
Why its in the center of the world land mass, why ?
Well, why indeed? Why on earth should the great pyramid of Giza matter in the slightest to any of us? The pyramids are the tombs of Egyptian pharaohs. What do they have to do with believers in Christ?
Why is it on the bedrock there that could hold it without sinking....keep its alignment and be a testimony of the Creator and all of world history.
How is a tomb built for a pharaoh in any way at all "a testimony of the Creator and all of world history," especially since nobody but scholars of Egypt gives it any thought?
Its location alone is divine and not evolutyionary by trial and error.
But how can it be divine if it doesn't have any significance to the vast majority of humanity? The Bible is divine, and it happens to be significant to a great number of people. The pyramid? Not even a blip on the radar for most of us. Why are you so wrapped up in this nonChristian stuff if you are a Christian? Ancient Egypt was just one of the many empires of fallen humanity under Satan, why are you getting so caught up in it?
Its tomb is exactly the same as the ARK of the Lord in the Holy of Holies. Why, study darn yas study
What? What on earth has convinced you pagan Egypt and its pyramids have anything whatever to do with God as He's revealed himself in the Bible? At the very least you are letting your imagination run wild in bizarre directions.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 380 by Davidjay, posted 04-12-2017 2:12 AM Davidjay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 385 by Davidjay, posted 04-13-2017 1:38 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 386 of 716 (804786)
04-13-2017 7:02 AM
Reply to: Message 385 by Davidjay
04-13-2017 1:38 AM


Re: Giza Location designed
Faith as mentioned the Great Pyramid was built by Enoch as mentioned IN Isiah, and is a testimony written in stone as proof they could have known.
David, Enoch isn't mentioned in Isaiah.
As for proving that Jesus is the Messiah mathematically I believe that was done very well from the prophecy of the 69 weeks in Daniel 9, but it doesn't count to Jesus' birth, it counts to his entrance into Jerusalem on the donkey, which was the announcement of his Kingship/Messiahship. (The anniversary of which incidentally was this last Sunday, known as Palm Sunday.)
I can't read your links, most of them are too hard on my eyes, and the rules here are that you must tell us in your own words what they say and use the link just for a reference.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 385 by Davidjay, posted 04-13-2017 1:38 AM Davidjay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 389 by Davidjay, posted 04-13-2017 11:51 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 399 of 716 (804966)
04-14-2017 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 391 by Davidjay
04-13-2017 11:56 AM


The Star: Another calculation for Christ's birth that's grounded in the Bible
The Christ Triangle of the Great Pyramid absolutely confirms Jesus ministry and time frames..
Even if such a thing were true, even if for some reason God did guide the appearance of such clues to the ministry of Christ in such odd places as the great pyramid, what could it possibly mean to a believer in Christ? We don't need that sort of extrabiblical revelation to know everything we need to know about Christ, and spending the time to investigate the evidence can only distract us from the clear message of the Bible. If such a thing had any purpose at all it wouldn't be for believers in this life let alone unbelievers.
I've seen some good evidence that the zodiac contains the story of the gospel if you know how to read the signs, and that idea makes use of scripture to prove the point. Two sources: Witness of the Stars, a book by Bullinger, which I'm not very familiar with, and a study from ten years ago called The Star of Bethlehem, which a lawyer did using some Astronomy software. This has some interesting ramifications in dating events surrounding the Lord's life, including his birth. It uses the astronomy program to plot the positions of the planets around the time of Christ's birth to locate the star that guided the wise men.
I think it's fascinating although I wouldn't put a lot of trust in it. You might enjoy it though, especially since it does involve some calculations. I've tried to follow them but it's beyond me without spending way too much time at it. In any case I think it's a really interesting study.
It's also of course on topic for this thread about the prophecies of the Messiah.
ABE: If you want to skip the introduction, how he got involved in the study and the clues in the Bible to the nature of the star of Bethlehem, and go to where he starts showing with the astronomy program where things were in the sky around the time of Christ's birth, start about 30:00:
/
Just found a shorter version:
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 391 by Davidjay, posted 04-13-2017 11:56 AM Davidjay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 401 by Davidjay, posted 04-15-2017 12:19 AM Faith has replied
 Message 418 by NoNukes, posted 04-25-2017 3:04 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 402 of 716 (805016)
04-15-2017 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 401 by Davidjay
04-15-2017 12:19 AM


Re: The Star: Another calculation for Christ's birth that's grounded in the Bible
I thought you should appreciate Bullinger so it's interesting if you've quoted him. Have you seen The Star of Bethlehem?
David, your posts are very hard to follow. I don't know if you are quoting Bullinger or what you are doing, what is your words and what someone else's. In other words, was it Bullinger talking about the pyramid or is that your comment?
It's not hard to put quotations between quote codes. See "Essential Links" at the top of the page, and click on "Message Coding Help." OR you can use the Peek button at the far right below any post to see how that post used codes for whatever you want to learn. But you still need to be more careful about using the "Reply" button which is the first one on the right side bottom of the post you want to reply to. Please be careful about this because it's hard enough to figure out what you are saying.
Please don't keep referring me to your links: I CAN'T READ WHITE PAGES, and yours are particularly glaring, my eyes can't handle it. Please always copy out the main thing you want to communicate.
---------------------------------------
And again, David, the end time King David is Jesus Christ himself, his Second Coming. I don't know how you keep thinking it's another man.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 401 by Davidjay, posted 04-15-2017 12:19 AM Davidjay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 403 by Davidjay, posted 04-15-2017 1:14 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 404 by Davidjay, posted 04-15-2017 1:19 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 406 of 716 (805038)
04-15-2017 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 405 by jar
04-15-2017 7:30 AM


Daniel 9
There is nothing related to Jesus in Daniel 9. Only a dishonest apologist can pretend Daniel is about Jesus.
I'd say the entire evangelical Church regards Daniel 9 as a prophecy of the timing of the coming of the Messiah, also most other branches of Protestantism. I'm sure that won't stop you from calling all of us "dishonest apologists" of course.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 405 by jar, posted 04-15-2017 7:30 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 407 by jar, posted 04-15-2017 7:40 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 408 by PaulK, posted 04-15-2017 11:54 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 409 of 716 (805102)
04-15-2017 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 408 by PaulK
04-15-2017 11:54 AM


Re: Daniel 9
To be fair many may be ignorant and deceived rather than dishonest. But there is no doubt that Daniel 9 is not about Jesus, and any claims of exact dates from Daniel 9 are certainly false.
And who are you to contradict the entire Church?
Put "Daniel 9 prophecy" into Google to see some of the sources that recognize Daniel 9 as counting to the coming of Jesus Christ.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 408 by PaulK, posted 04-15-2017 11:54 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 410 by PaulK, posted 04-15-2017 5:22 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 411 of 716 (805118)
04-15-2017 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 410 by PaulK
04-15-2017 5:22 PM


Re: Daniel 9
I'm not up to such a debate right now, but before I'd even consider it I'd want to know if your view of the book of Daniel is based on "modern scholarship" that places its writing after the events it prophesies, rather than my view, which of course takes its own timing clues at face value.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 410 by PaulK, posted 04-15-2017 5:22 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 412 by PaulK, posted 04-16-2017 2:00 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 419 of 716 (806445)
04-25-2017 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 418 by NoNukes
04-25-2017 3:04 PM


Re: The Star: Another calculation for Christ's birth that's grounded in the Bible
The Bible forbids astrology, which this isn't. It's a really interesting study of the sky around the time of Christ's birth, using a bona fide Astronomy program. Yes the position of the planets in the zodiac is important but it's not used astrologically. The author dealt with that worry early on in the study.
He's tracking down Biblical references, principally trying to find out what the "star" was that the wise men followed.* (He concludes it was a close conjunction of two planets that would have been very bright to the naked eye), and explains how it "stopped" over the town of Bethlehem.
Besides the star he finds interesting celestial explanations for such things as the moon turning to blood according to biblical prophecy, and the woman in Revelation with twelve stars on her head and the moon at her feet.
I'm not sure he's got all the timing right for the events he was looking for but there is no doubt this is a really interesting study that is based on what the wise men of the east would have seen in the sky in their day. Larsen has the interesting thought, by the way, that those wise men may have been from a Jewish school trained by the Prophet Daniel (who never left Babylon) -- because who but the Jews would be so interested in the birth of a Jewish King? Who knows, could be.
ABE: * He tells the history of Kepler's search for the Star, and explains that he failed because of a wrong date given for Herod's death in the writings of Josephus.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 418 by NoNukes, posted 04-25-2017 3:04 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 420 by Taq, posted 04-25-2017 5:11 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 421 by NoNukes, posted 04-25-2017 8:02 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 427 of 716 (806502)
04-26-2017 4:32 AM
Reply to: Message 421 by NoNukes
04-25-2017 8:02 PM


Re: The Star: Another calculation for Christ's birth that's grounded in the Bible
Yes the position of the planets in the zodiac is important but it's not used astrologically. The author dealt with that worry early on in the study.
Attaching meanings to the positions of planets in the zodiac is astrology. Period.
Yes, you're right, but this is all about the Bible and the meanings ARE there, God's work one should suppose. The Fall put it all in the hands of the demons and the usual uses of astrology are to be avoided, but for reflecting God's own work why shouldn't it be taken seriously?
Your initial claim wasn't just about the star the wise men followed, but that the stars contained the story of "the Gospel". I am going to assume that your post here is actually what you meant.
No, I think there is reason to believe it does contain the gospel although I haven't studied it all out. This video doesn't try to make that case, though he refers to the book The Witness of the Stars that does, but he does get into questions about what happened on the day of the crucifixion as well as around Jesus' birth. One thing this video does show is that there are quite a few references in the Bible to signs in the heavens most of us don't think about.
I don't find any of this outlandish. Don't be such a liberal. God is God, and this isn't like the pyramid of Giza which doesn't have a single reference in the Bible that I know of.
FWIW, I took a university course in NT Bible, and I read about a number of attempts to tie the Star of Bethlehem to various astronomical phenomena (conjunction, super nova, comets) or to date Christ's birth in other ways. The dates ranged about a decade or so on either side of 1 AD. I doubt that any one of those possibilities is much better than any other.
Well, you don't know, do you? Larson discusses problems about pinning down the date, and discusses various possibilities that have been considered to explain the star, and shows why they don't work in terms of the description given in the Bible itself. Did your class consider the Biblical description? For starters it couldn't be a fast-moving object like a comet. Larson's candidate fits the brightness requirement, and explains how a moving celestial object can actually be seen to stop moving. It's also symbolically very interesting.
ABE: Oh and as I understood from this video, tracking anything in the sky closely enough over even a few years in order to identify a particular phenomenon that lasted only a short time, is impossible. If it were possible Kepler would have found the star. You have to start with the most reasonable date you can come up with, and I think Larson makes a good case for his choice, although that's always where the weakness lies./ABE
The date isn't given in the Bible, so Christians just have to deal with not knowing.
Nobody has a problem with that. But if Kepler saw fit to try why shouldn't anyone else? Kepler had only his excellent mind for math but we have an astronomy program that can track the sky for thousands of years. Don't be such a liberal.
ABE: If the Bible refers to signs in the heavens as part of prophecies of great events, surely God expects us to try to interpret them correctly.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 421 by NoNukes, posted 04-25-2017 8:02 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 428 by Pressie, posted 04-26-2017 5:18 AM Faith has replied
 Message 429 by Pressie, posted 04-26-2017 5:20 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 431 by NoNukes, posted 04-26-2017 5:53 AM Faith has replied
 Message 432 by NoNukes, posted 04-26-2017 5:58 AM Faith has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024