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Author Topic:   Radiometric Dating Corroboration
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 41 (7912)
03-27-2002 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by mark24
03-26-2002 5:07 PM


"What ever way you cook it, it looks like volcanism is bad for our health! I never realised the correlation was so close between volcanism & extinction. I wonder how TC explains this "fluke"."
-I wouldn't call it a fluke in the least, its very appealing to the model that I propose. Simply because, the 'problem' that people see in it is that its going to kill everything (or atleast lead to extinctions with different unlucky kinds). Seems, its an expectant.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by mark24, posted 03-26-2002 5:07 PM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by mark24, posted 03-27-2002 2:05 PM TrueCreation has replied
 Message 27 by nator, posted 03-27-2002 9:33 PM TrueCreation has replied

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 41 (7915)
03-27-2002 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by mark24
03-27-2002 2:05 PM


"Why is it expected? Because it kills? The volcanism that would be expected by your model would leave nothing but very, very, lucky archaea."
--Really? So you have done the calculations? Because I have not yet, I still must find ratio's of outer-core, asthenosphere, lithosphere, and crust Lead, Uranium, and Thorium radioisotopes to even find the initial variables.
"The volcanism that marries up with extinctions IS UNexpected by your model (message 20). How do you explain the fossil record relating to those extinctions re. volcanism? A lucky fluke? Why were ALL trilobites killed at the P-T boundary (along with 84% of ALL genera) at that time without managing to kill a single, I repeat, a SINGLE mammal, not to mention dinosaurs, but ammonites ALL died at the K-T boundary without a SINGLE primate being killed?"
--I think we discussed Trilobites in 'Falsifying Creation', http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=page&f=1&t=75&p=6 .
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by mark24, posted 03-27-2002 2:05 PM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by mark24, posted 03-27-2002 2:39 PM TrueCreation has replied

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 41 (7960)
03-29-2002 12:52 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by nator
03-27-2002 9:33 PM


"What is a "kind", TC? Did this question of mine get answered yet?"
--Before I answer Mark's post, considering 'kinds', lets see. When you ask 'what is a kind' are you asking for a definition (in the context of the question I believe), or are you asking for what animals I can point out that are 'kinds' or how can you recognize whether something is a 'kind', a bit simmilar but different. Baraminology I believe I have heard of is attempting to do the pin-pointing with genetic simmilarity within the cooperation of speciation, mutation and differernt diversifications within hereditary characteristics on different biological levels. Though the definition of a 'kind' in another context is the group of animals that were created as is on the creation dates.
--As is analogous toward an inability to give a direct definition toward 'species', the 'kind' as well is difficult to make such a direct pin-point, universal coincidence. Ie, the definition is applicable to all organisms.
(Careful Tazimus, arrogance can be bliss, though It is best to keep quiet untill you have room to make such a confident assertion)
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[This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 03-29-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by nator, posted 03-27-2002 9:33 PM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Dr_Tazimus_maximus, posted 03-31-2002 8:25 AM TrueCreation has replied

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 41 (7961)
03-29-2002 12:59 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by mark24
03-27-2002 2:39 PM


I did a 'find' search in my browser for trilobite and I found that I made reference to post 65 - http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=1&t=75&m=65#65 . There is a progression, or a decline in trilobite populations, it wasn't exactly just a 'boom' all the trilobites are extinct.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by mark24, posted 03-27-2002 2:39 PM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by mark24, posted 03-29-2002 5:03 AM TrueCreation has not replied

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 41 (8051)
03-31-2002 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Dr_Tazimus_maximus
03-31-2002 8:25 AM


"Happy Easter TC"
--Thank you, Likewize Tazimus.
"I am curious as to were you thought that I was being arrogant w.r.t. my post re: kinds."
--I was directing this statment toward your post #29:
quote:
Kind is the non-biological concept that creationists try to substitute for species (of course, you probably already knew this and were trying to pin TC down ). It even falls outside of the somewhat looser aplications of the BSC.
"I was a) pointing out that the definitions generally used by people concerning biological kinds are really not a good representation of biology"
--I find it just as relevant as the species, genus, or family classification.
"and b) making an observation concerning the potential motives of the poster. Nothing arrogant there that I can see."
--Not in the post you seem to be refering too, I concur.
"Now, as to my degree of knowledge, I am quite familiar with numerous ways that many creationist organizations use the term kinds and know that they shift it a lot and without supporting data. While I am glad that some are trying to look at real data there is a component of the creationist definition of "kind" that is unsupported by the data and in fact is directly opposed to it. This would be the concept and reality of varying levels of speciation. I have read of some creationist definitions of "kind" where small changes are allowed but they would never allow that tigers and lions, or jaguars and puma's have common ancestors."
--Actually, I see that tigers and lions are a single kind, as jaguars and puma's may as well have a common ancestor.
"Both the fossil and the molecular data support speciation; another and more recent example would be with whales and hippos, they share a common ancestor and yet the creationist definition of "kind" specifically rules out the type of speciation which both the molecular phylogeny and the fossil record demonstrate."
--I am all for speciation, and is quite a priority within the production of diversity and variation. As for the whales and hippos, mind if you emphesize?
"Now, you may know this, and if so please excuse the potential redundency. Species as defined by people in general and scientists in particular are both a reality and a non-reality. By this I mean that species exist, there are populations of distinct living organisms that change over time, however, species as often defined and pigeon-holed by man are a construct that we use to attempt to understand nature. We inadvertantly impose improper constraints or miss relationships that would change how we define species."
--I think that I can agree with that.
"What scientists do not do w.r.t. the definition of species is to impose an unmoving, a priori constraint as is done w.r.t. the base definition of kinds, ie no speciation, or as many creationists would put it, no macro-evolution (which would be a missuse of the term IMO but that is for a later debate)."
--How does the definition of kind, not allow for speciation, this is the reason the 'kind' is so difficult to identify precisely.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Dr_Tazimus_maximus, posted 03-31-2002 8:25 AM Dr_Tazimus_maximus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Dr_Tazimus_maximus, posted 04-01-2002 12:07 PM TrueCreation has replied

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 41 (8117)
04-02-2002 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Dr_Tazimus_maximus
04-01-2002 12:07 PM


"the above statement seems to be at odds with the following statement
But TC, they are the same post."
--Hm.. May be that there is a simple missunderstanding here. The original post that you addressed starting this was my reply to schrafinator. In this post my last remark in parentheses was toward your post which stated:
quote:
Kind is the non-biological concept that creationists try to substitute for species (of course, you probably already knew this and were trying to pin TC down ). It even falls outside of the somewhat looser aplications of the BSC.
"Sorry, I can not agree here due to the artificial constraints imposed on "kind" as mentioned earlier."
--How so?
"Also, creationists often set very little in the way of objective criteria w.r.t. the definition of kind, again as I mentioned earlier. One example is the ICR, their definition is more fluid than a supercooled gas."
--I would not argue that to Identify a specific kind is quite cumbersome. Though of course as is analogous as the definition of species, it is like-wize to place specific characteristics in identification of a definition.
"Well maybe we are getting somewhere after all. However, assuming your statement is representative as to how you think, can I assume that you would agree that these are not "created kinds"?"
--In individuality of the tiger, lion, etc. yes you would be correct, they are not the original created kinds. The representatives of the fossil record many are not even direct original copies.
"Ah, so if speciation is real then both species and kinds can change can't they."
--Absolutely.
"As to the whale, there has been a great deal of data both from molecular biology and from fossils to determine the evolutionary pathways that the whales ancestors took to go from the land to the sea."
--I have seen some of this information, obviously it assumes that such evolutionary processes have uniformly taken place as an underlying assumption, however.
"There was an excellant article in Science, 21SEP01, Vol 293 outlining several finds that described data not only placing the whales squarely in the artiodactyl camp (even toed Ungulates which include hippos) which was more in line with the molecular phylogeny data. There were a number of morphological characteristics that were what would be predicted in a species that spent time both onland and in the water including nostril placement and the arrangment of lower vertebrea which, eventually, allowed the up and down movement of the tail and flukes."
--Wouldn't happen to have a more lengthy article on this, if you know of one that is internet accessable, as unfortunatelly, I am unable to access the issues of science. Also, one of my explanatory inference on this is simply the logic used in lining up every animal of the world in a line according to the most characteristical likenesses. You will obviously find very many phylogenetic, morphological/anatomical characteristical similarities between their neighbors.
"Now, most "kinds" as defined by most creationist groups do not fit this, but species as defined by biology and allowing for speciation and evolution does."
--To this extent of hippos and whales, I think it is safe to concur.
"I have never been able to find a reason that some creationists say that kinds do not allow for speciation, it makes no biological sense."
--I wouldn't expect you could, obviously, it would not be much of a scientific explination, as I agree, it would make no scence in biology.
"It also depends on the creationist, some will say that "created kinds" are those made by God during the first week and have never changed (patent BS), others say that there is a level of variation within species and their definitions range from no speciation to no "macroevolution" (a term which they constantly misuse), again with very little supporting data for their statements."
--I should start a revolution so all creationists would agree with me, but that probably wouldn't be the best idea in most cases.
But then again, I could form a theoretical monarchy.
"This is the reason that I say that the term "kind" is a sloppily defined BS term, I understand differing viewpoints, what I can not stand is the lack of ANY supporting data."
--I would argue your notion of the lack of any supporting data, as it is evident all throughout the fossil record as seemingly cohesive and applicable. And yes it is sloppily defined, if it is lawful for it to be defined at all.
"W.R.T. species let me go one step further. Now, if speciation at ANY level can occur then mutations must be the source of the changes within the genomes"
--Definantly a priority, yes, acting very much on transposons activating and moving from site to site in the genome, thereby accounting for a great mechenism in variation and the production in genetic diversity.
"(simple variation around a mean will not suffice unless it can be an increasing variation where changes in the species occur due to a shift in the mean itself, brought about by changes in selective pressure due to changes in the environment), a point almost always disputed by creationists. Now, this occurance of new genes, loss of old genes and shift within allelic frequencies makes up the basis for the raw material for speciation at all levels. With this in mind: 1)how would you account of speciation within the definition of the term kind (you can define your understanding of the term if you like), "
--Speciation is a mechenism that drives the production of diversity and variation within the kind, and in doing so, splits up the kind into a genetically distinct species, this happening throughout time has shown highly effective in the production of diversity within the kind. What I mean by 'within the kind', is simply that the kinds were the initial existants which started the process.
"2)how does this differ from species as defined in modern biology"
--I do not believe that there is any difference, accept of course its previous history of development toward present day.
"and 3) how does this definition of kind disallow evolution through natural selection and descent with modification?"
--Natural selection and decent with modification, are greatly attributions in the process of evolutionary development per se. There is no disallowing of this process.
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[This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 04-02-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Dr_Tazimus_maximus, posted 04-01-2002 12:07 PM Dr_Tazimus_maximus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by wj, posted 04-02-2002 8:37 PM TrueCreation has not replied

  
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