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Author Topic:   The TRVE history of the Flood...
Faith 
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From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 406 of 1352 (805956)
04-21-2017 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 400 by kbertsche
04-21-2017 2:34 PM


All means all
Faith writes:
Well, I'm now taking the position that the Bible is evidence. It's God's word, it's the truth, it trumps all the contradictory dating claims. I see no point in repeating this basic conflict ad nauseam.
But Faith, you are conflating the text with the YEC interpretation of the text. Even if the text is divinely inspired and inerrant, human interpretations are not. Gen 1-11 is especially difficult to interpret, because the accounts are very condensed and include a significant amount of imagery (starting with chapter 12, the accounts slow down and become much more detailed).
There is only one reason you find those eleven chapters difficult to interpret and that's because they conflict with current scientific dogma.; They are not all that hard to interpret otherwise.
One fundamental question: when the author says that the Flood covered "the whole earth" or "all the earth", what did he mean? Is this "all" from God's perspective, or from the narrator's perspective? If the latter, the author was likely referring to "all" of the known earth, not the entire globe (just as when Paul said that the gospel had spread to all the earth; he meant all of the known earth, I.e. all of the Roman Empire).
There would have been no need for the ark if it hadn't been the whole absolutely whole entire earth. It took a hundred years to build it; In that time God could have herded all the animals to areas that wouldn't be flooded, just as he selected and herded them onto the ark. Noah and family could hike there. It's SO silly to try to make "all" mean "not all." God inspired the Biblical account to be read by p0eople of the time, but also by people thousands of years later.
ALL the globe. ALL. Also ALL things on the land died. ALL of them. There is no doubt about this meaning kb, you are fooling yourself.
The strata and the fossils are worldwide enormous evidence IMO.
I suspect Paul wasn't that stupid either but I'd have to look up that passage to get the context.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 410 by CRR, posted 04-22-2017 2:27 AM Faith has replied

  
CRR
Member (Idle past 2242 days)
Posts: 579
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 407 of 1352 (805988)
04-22-2017 2:10 AM
Reply to: Message 359 by Davidjay
04-21-2017 9:12 AM


Re: Continental Drift is 'Off Topic'
I accept the arguments that Continental Drift began as part of the Flood so it's not really off topic. The comment that in the days of Peleg the world was divided probably refers instead to the division into different languages at Babel.

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CRR
Member (Idle past 2242 days)
Posts: 579
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 408 of 1352 (805989)
04-22-2017 2:19 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by Dr Adequate
04-19-2017 3:56 AM


Re: Re:Grand Canyon is the result of Noah's Flood
The Flood created the basic topography that rivers then followed. Since then of course there has been thousands of years of river erosion and deposition which has had a large impact on the result we see today.
The Niagara falls have been eroding at an average of over 1m/year substantially altering the immediate post flood geography of that area. Similarly the Colorado River will have altered the terrain within it's catchment.
[update]
Accurate surveys of erosion of the Falls of Niagara began in 1842.
From 1842 to 1905, the average rate of erosion of the Horseshoe Falls was 1.16 meters (3.8 feet) per year.
From 1906 to 1927, this rate of erosion was reduced to .70 meters (2.3 feet) per year. This reduction coincided with the large quantity of water being diverted for hydro-electric generation.
Edited by CRR, : update as marked

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CRR
Member (Idle past 2242 days)
Posts: 579
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 409 of 1352 (805990)
04-22-2017 2:23 AM
Reply to: Message 406 by Faith
04-21-2017 8:14 PM


Re: All means all
I agree, Faith. Gen 1-11 reads as history and scholars had no difficulty interpreting it as such for thousands of years until "old age" ideas took root. Usher, Newton, and others were able to calculate quite similar dates for Creation from it, agreeing within a few hundred years.

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Replies to this message:
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CRR
Member (Idle past 2242 days)
Posts: 579
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


(1)
Message 410 of 1352 (805991)
04-22-2017 2:27 AM
Reply to: Message 406 by Faith
04-21-2017 8:14 PM


Re: All means all
The strata and the fossils are worldwide enormous evidence IMO.
Even Everest has marine fossils in the top strata. It is probable that the Himalaya were much lower in the past rather than the Flood was deep enough cover their current height.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 406 by Faith, posted 04-21-2017 8:14 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 411 of 1352 (805994)
04-22-2017 2:44 AM
Reply to: Message 404 by Faith
04-21-2017 7:47 PM


Re: Let's not keep arguing the same old basics
Faith writes:
If the Bible is the truth then what it says about things in the real world can be used as evidence for those things and against contradictory statements about those things.
Ok, so all you have to do now is prove that the bible is true rather than just say it is. You have to demonstrate that your premise is correct BEFORE you can draw any conclusions from it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 404 by Faith, posted 04-21-2017 7:47 PM Faith has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 412 of 1352 (805996)
04-22-2017 3:08 AM
Reply to: Message 411 by Tangle
04-22-2017 2:44 AM


Re: Let's not keep arguing the same old basics
No not on this thread I don't have to prove it. I can use it as reference.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 411 by Tangle, posted 04-22-2017 2:44 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 416 by PaulK, posted 04-22-2017 3:29 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 413 of 1352 (805997)
04-22-2017 3:10 AM
Reply to: Message 410 by CRR
04-22-2017 2:27 AM


Re: All means all
Even Everest has marine fossils in the top strata. It is probable that the Himalaya were much lower in the past rather than the Flood was deep enough cover their current height.
My view is that the high mountains were pushed up after the Flood by the tectonic force that started Continental Drift.

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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 414 of 1352 (805998)
04-22-2017 3:11 AM
Reply to: Message 412 by Faith
04-22-2017 3:08 AM


Re: Let's not keep arguing the same old basics
Fith writes:
No not on this thread I don't have to prove it. I can use it as reference.
Then give us a link to the post on this site where you proved it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 412 by Faith, posted 04-22-2017 3:08 AM Faith has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 415 of 1352 (805999)
04-22-2017 3:13 AM
Reply to: Message 414 by Tangle
04-22-2017 3:11 AM


Re: Let's not keep arguing the same old basics
One doesn't have to prove that sort of reference. Do try to follow the sequence of the argument. It doesn't go back too very far.

This message is a reply to:
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PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 416 of 1352 (806002)
04-22-2017 3:29 AM
Reply to: Message 412 by Faith
04-22-2017 3:08 AM


Re: Let's not keep arguing the same old basics
quote:
No not on this thread I don't have to prove it. I can use it as reference.
This thread is in the Science forums, so yes you do.
Even if it wasn't, there are still theological arguments against your position.

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 Message 412 by Faith, posted 04-22-2017 3:08 AM Faith has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 417 of 1352 (806003)
04-22-2017 3:35 AM
Reply to: Message 416 by PaulK
04-22-2017 3:29 AM


Re: Let's not keep arguing the same old basics
Creationists Take the Bible as our source for basic information about the Flood. We don't have to prove that because it's foundational to all biblical creationist arguments. And I think even Percy said so.

This message is a reply to:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 418 of 1352 (806004)
04-22-2017 3:39 AM
Reply to: Message 417 by Faith
04-22-2017 3:35 AM


Re: Let's not keep arguing the same old basics
You can take it as the basis of your beliefs but you can't use it as evidence that those beliefs are true without showing that it is reliable. Not on this thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 417 by Faith, posted 04-22-2017 3:35 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 419 of 1352 (806005)
04-22-2017 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 418 by PaulK
04-22-2017 3:39 AM


Re: Let's not keep arguing the same old basics
We've shown that the Bible is God's word many times already, but of course we don't succeed at persuading anyone here. Seems to me if we have the job of proving it to YOU, then you ought to have the job of proving your dating methods to US. How about that for fair?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 420 by PaulK, posted 04-22-2017 8:09 AM Faith has replied
 Message 425 by Coyote, posted 04-22-2017 9:44 AM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 420 of 1352 (806007)
04-22-2017 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 419 by Faith
04-22-2017 7:58 AM


Re: Let's not keep arguing the same old basics
quote:
We've shown that the Bible is God's word many times already, but of course we don't succeed at persuading anyone here.
Of course you haven't come close to showing it. I'll refrain from giving my opinion of your arguments but suffice to say they fall far short of rationally convincing.
quote:
Seems to me if we have the job of proving it to YOU, then you ought to have the job of proving your dating methods to US. How about that for fair
But you see we've provided very strong evidence for scientific dating methods that you can't effectively rebut. So to be fair you should admit that we are well ahead of you.
I challenged you to go back to RAZDs dating correlation threads. If you have an argument that the Bible, read literally to the extent that you do, is reliable point me at it. If it hasn't already been shredded I'll do it. And it will be easy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 419 by Faith, posted 04-22-2017 7:58 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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