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Author Topic:   How do you define the word Evolution?
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9196
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 436 of 936 (806152)
04-23-2017 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 420 by Dredge
04-23-2017 1:15 AM


Re: Dredge is once again wrong.
of Species, not life.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

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CRR
Member (Idle past 2267 days)
Posts: 579
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 437 of 936 (806204)
04-23-2017 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 418 by Dr Adequate
04-22-2017 11:45 PM


Re: Dredge is once again wrong.
A theory that attempts to explain the origin of species without explaining the origin of the first species is incomplete.
I think Darwin got a lot right in his book. However he fell into error when he extrapolated beyond the evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 418 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-22-2017 11:45 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 439 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-23-2017 6:58 PM CRR has not replied
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 Message 463 by Taq, posted 04-24-2017 4:09 PM CRR has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 193 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(1)
Message 438 of 936 (806206)
04-23-2017 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 437 by CRR
04-23-2017 6:14 PM


Re: Dredge is once again wrong.
All theories are incomplete. Otherwise there would only be one theory.
The issue is where to place a theory's boundaries. Since selection is an integral part of the ToE it's reasonable to say that if selection is not involved it's not covered by the ToE. We can't identify exactly where that boundary is but there are plenty of phenoma that obviously fit on one side.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 309 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 439 of 936 (806208)
04-23-2017 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 437 by CRR
04-23-2017 6:14 PM


Re: Dredge is once again wrong.
A theory that attempts to explain the origin of species without explaining the origin of the first species is incomplete.
Yes, what of it? No-one has claimed that the theory of evolution explains everything, just that it explains the things that it does in fact explain.

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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9196
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 440 of 936 (806218)
04-23-2017 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 437 by CRR
04-23-2017 6:14 PM


Re: Dredge is once again wrong.
There are lots of things the TOE doesn't explain. It explains evolution, thus its name. There is no scientifically accepted theory of the origin of life, because we just don't know. That is different than the TOE.
Maybe you need to review what a Scientific Theory is. Please check out the definitions in this thread.
Logical fallacy poster

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 437 by CRR, posted 04-23-2017 6:14 PM CRR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 443 by CRR, posted 04-23-2017 11:10 PM Theodoric has replied

  
CRR
Member (Idle past 2267 days)
Posts: 579
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 441 of 936 (806219)
04-23-2017 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 433 by dwise1
04-23-2017 9:37 AM


Re: Are creationists anti-science?
Here's one example of a secular trained geologist who made the switch to YEC.
Dr Ron Neller - creation.com
There's a longer interview here http://www.creationmagazine.com/...on/2017_volume_39_issue_1

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Replies to this message:
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CRR
Member (Idle past 2267 days)
Posts: 579
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 442 of 936 (806220)
04-23-2017 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 433 by dwise1
04-23-2017 9:37 AM


Re: Dobzhansky
I've read Dobzhansky's paper
Nothing in Biology Makes Sense except in the Light of Evolution
Author(s): Theodosius Dobzhansky
Source: The American Biology Teacher, Vol. 35, No. 3 (Mar., 1973), pp. 125-129
It was written 40 years ago so we shouldn't be too critical of it.
It mis-characterizes YEC's as believing in special creation for each species and fixity of species which does not represent current thinking. This invalidates about 1/2 the paper. His comments about the universal genetic code, cytochrome C, human gill slits, and some bad theology, make it rather out of date.
His title "Nothing in Biology Makes Sense except in the Light of Evolution" is wrong. A lot in biology makes perfect sense without evolution. E.g. the physical adaptations of the giraffe to cope with its height are functional requirements; while variations in the genetic code don't make sense in the light of evolution.
I also note this quote supporting abiogenesis and universal common ancestry.
"They suggest that life arose from inanimate matter only once and that all organisms, no matter
how diverse in other respects, conserve the basic features of the primordial life. (It is also possible
that there were several, or even many, origins of life; if so, the progeny of only one of them has survived
and inherited the earth.)"

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Replies to this message:
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CRR
Member (Idle past 2267 days)
Posts: 579
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 443 of 936 (806221)
04-23-2017 11:10 PM
Reply to: Message 440 by Theodoric
04-23-2017 8:58 PM


"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
Unless of course God actually did it, in which case excluding the possibility before examining the evidence is intellectual laziness and materialistic conceit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 440 by Theodoric, posted 04-23-2017 8:58 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 309 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 444 of 936 (806222)
04-23-2017 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 443 by CRR
04-23-2017 11:10 PM


Unless of course God actually did it, in which case excluding the possibility before examining the evidence is intellectual laziness and materialistic conceit.
Even if he did, just saying so would not in fact be an argument.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 309 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 445 of 936 (806223)
04-23-2017 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 442 by CRR
04-23-2017 11:05 PM


Re: Dobzhansky
It mis-characterizes YEC's as believing in special creation for each species and fixity of species which does not represent current thinking.
That depends who you ask. Dredge was denouncing speciation as an evil-utionist lie just the other week, perhaps you could have explained to him that the thoughts he currently has do not represent current thinking.
This invalidates about 1/2 the paper. His comments about the universal genetic code, cytochrome C, human gill slits, and some bad theology, make it rather out of date.
Well, that was vague. I didn't even know theology could go out of date. What observations of God have you made since he wrote the article that invalidate his theology? None? OK, then his guess is still every bit as good as yours. Or better, since it reconciles God with the world we actually live in.
His title "Nothing in Biology Makes Sense except in the Light of Evolution" is wrong. A lot in biology makes perfect sense without evolution. E.g. the physical adaptations of the giraffe to cope with its height are functional requirements ...
... and they evolved, how else do you ... oh yeah, magic. But that does not make perfect sense.
while variations in the genetic code don't make sense in the light of evolution.
That's remarkable claim given that we can actually watch these variations evolve.
I also note this quote supporting abiogenesis and universal common ancestry.
But not supporting the claim that this is the definition of evolution.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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Dredge
Member (Idle past 99 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 446 of 936 (806224)
04-24-2017 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 403 by Coyote
04-21-2017 11:10 PM


Re: Are creationists anti-science?
Coyote: ""verified by observation and experiment" is not a valid criterion is science."
Really? My dictionary seems to differ; it saysscience is "the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world THROUGH OBSERVATION AND EXPERIMENT."
This means theories that aren't verified by observation and experiment lay outside the realm of science - the theory that all life evolved from a common ancestor, for example. Since creationists don't deny anything in science that has been verified by observation and experiment, they can't be accused of being anti-scientific.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 403 by Coyote, posted 04-21-2017 11:10 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dredge
Member (Idle past 99 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 447 of 936 (806225)
04-24-2017 12:33 AM
Reply to: Message 404 by dwise1
04-21-2017 11:38 PM


Re: Are creationists anti-science?
dwise1: "I'll give you two major ones: 1. Young earth
2. Noah's Flood"
Since I'm not a young-earther, the first item doesn't apply to me.
How can you prove that Noah's Flood is "contrary to fact"?

This message is a reply to:
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Dredge
Member (Idle past 99 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 448 of 936 (806226)
04-24-2017 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 407 by dwise1
04-22-2017 12:58 AM


Re: Are creationists anti-science?
dwise1: "thank you for pointing out that you are not a YEC."
But don't get your hopes up - I also believe that all life on earth was created in six days, 5778 years ago.

This message is a reply to:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 449 of 936 (806227)
04-24-2017 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 446 by Dredge
04-24-2017 12:29 AM


Re: Are creationists anti-science?
This means theories that aren't verified by observation and experiment lay outside the realm of science
Nonsense. Some fields of science are not able to do experiments, but that does not prevent them from doing science.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 309 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 450 of 936 (806228)
04-24-2017 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 446 by Dredge
04-24-2017 12:29 AM


Re: Are creationists anti-science?
This means theories that aren't verified by observation and experiment lay outside the realm of science ...
I have a theory that the sun exists, but so far I have only been able to verify it by observation, so, alas, it lies outside the realm of science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 446 by Dredge, posted 04-24-2017 12:29 AM Dredge has not replied

  
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