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Author Topic:   Atheism Cannot Rationally Explain Morals.
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 751 of 1006 (806477)
04-26-2017 12:32 AM
Reply to: Message 750 by Dredge
04-26-2017 12:29 AM


Re: You really need to drop that straw man by now
That was a strange jumble of words. It conveys little except that you are angry at science, as usual.
Have you given up on the actual topic?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 750 by Dredge, posted 04-26-2017 12:29 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2855
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 752 of 1006 (806478)
04-26-2017 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 728 by Dr Adequate
04-23-2017 2:05 AM


Well, the Muslim could start off by asking ...
Yes, they could engage in an exhaustive dialogue, but most likely it will eventually reach a stalemate where it's simply one implacable opinion verses another implacable opinion. It would be like one man arguing that a Porsche is a better-looking car than a Ferrari verses another man who argues vice-versa - neither point of view can be proven correct.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 728 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-23-2017 2:05 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 754 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-26-2017 12:44 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2855
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 753 of 1006 (806480)
04-26-2017 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 738 by Tangle
04-24-2017 2:58 AM


Re: You really need to drop that straw man by now
the other is ... merely the dogma of a reigious cult
Well, let's simplify things by cutting religion out of the discussion - there are plenty of non-religious folks who oppose same-sex marriage. Your opinion on the matter is not more valid than theirs and there is no objecitve way of deciding which opinion is correct.
(The law of the land is irrelevant, since whoever is in power gets to impose their version of morality on everyone else; or laws are arrived by concensus, which is alsoirrelevant, because consensus doesn't prove that a law is morally correct.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 738 by Tangle, posted 04-24-2017 2:58 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 757 by PaulK, posted 04-26-2017 12:58 AM Dredge has not replied
 Message 758 by Chiroptera, posted 04-26-2017 1:15 AM Dredge has not replied
 Message 760 by Tangle, posted 04-26-2017 2:10 AM Dredge has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 754 of 1006 (806481)
04-26-2017 12:44 AM
Reply to: Message 752 by Dredge
04-26-2017 12:34 AM


Yes, they could engage in an exhaustive dialogue, but most likely it will eventually reach a stalemate where it's simply one implacable opinion verses another implacable opinion. It would be like one man arguing that a Porsche is a better-looking car than a Ferrari verses another man who argues vice-versa - neither point of view can be proven correct.
And do you maintain that this would go differently if there was a God who created humankind by fiat?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 752 by Dredge, posted 04-26-2017 12:34 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2855
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 755 of 1006 (806482)
04-26-2017 12:45 AM
Reply to: Message 729 by Tangle
04-23-2017 3:54 AM


That's a religous, not a moral argument
If atheists are correct and there is no God or gods, then religious morality is man-made - therefore they are as just as valid as any other expression of human morality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 729 by Tangle, posted 04-23-2017 3:54 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 756 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-26-2017 12:57 AM Dredge has replied
 Message 761 by Tangle, posted 04-26-2017 2:16 AM Dredge has not replied
 Message 762 by Taq, posted 04-26-2017 10:59 AM Dredge has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 756 of 1006 (806483)
04-26-2017 12:57 AM
Reply to: Message 755 by Dredge
04-26-2017 12:45 AM


If atheists are correct and there is no God or gods, then religious morality is man-made - therefore they are as just as valid as any other expression of human morality.
The conclusion doesn't seem to follow. One man-made thing can in fact be better than another: a house, a sandwich, a medical diagnosis ...
The doctrine of the flat earth is man-made (and usually religiously inspired) but we don't say that therefore it is just as valid as any other man-made opinion as to what shape the earth is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 755 by Dredge, posted 04-26-2017 12:45 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 808 by Dredge, posted 04-30-2017 12:40 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17911
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 757 of 1006 (806484)
04-26-2017 12:58 AM
Reply to: Message 753 by Dredge
04-26-2017 12:41 AM


The usual Nihilism
So we see from your posts that you see avoiding punishment as a valid basis for what you call "morality" and pretty much nothing else. Is there a point ? Or are you just arguing for nihilism ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 753 by Dredge, posted 04-26-2017 12:41 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 758 of 1006 (806486)
04-26-2017 1:15 AM
Reply to: Message 753 by Dredge
04-26-2017 12:41 AM


Re: You really need to drop that straw man by now
(The law of the land is irrelevant, since whoever is in power gets to impose their version of morality on everyone else; or laws are arrived by concensus, which is also irrelevant, because consensus doesn't prove that a law is morally correct.)
That's pretty much true...as long as you mind your own business. But if you were to decide to harass a same-sex couple (or if your business discriminates against a same-sex couple in a jurisdiction that protects sexual orientation in its anti-discrimination laws), you'll find that the law becomes pretty relevant real quick.

I believe in a relatively equal society, supported by institutions that limit extremes of wealth and poverty. I believe in democracy, civil liberties, and the rule of law. That makes me a liberal, and I’m proud of it. -- Paul Krugman

This message is a reply to:
 Message 753 by Dredge, posted 04-26-2017 12:41 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9580
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 6.6


Message 759 of 1006 (806493)
04-26-2017 1:50 AM
Reply to: Message 750 by Dredge
04-26-2017 12:29 AM


Re: You really need to drop that straw man by now
Dredge writes:
We share 60% of our DNA with bananas and even more with fruit flys - this helps to understand why humans and chimps are so different despite them sharing 98.8% of their each other's DNA. And it means humans and chimps may not be anywhere nearly as closely related to each other as the 98.8% figure suggests - and evolutionists would have us believe.
What nonsense. If you want to make the claim that the geneticists are wrong, you're going to have to do some genome sequencing of your own and get yourself published.
But of course, you haven't answered the substantive point. Why are we related to other species at all?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 750 by Dredge, posted 04-26-2017 12:29 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 812 by Dredge, posted 04-30-2017 12:56 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9580
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 6.6


Message 760 of 1006 (806496)
04-26-2017 2:10 AM
Reply to: Message 753 by Dredge
04-26-2017 12:41 AM


Re: You really need to drop that straw man by now
Dredge writes:
Well, let's simplify things by cutting religion out of the discussion
Believe me, I'd love to.
there are plenty of non-religious folks who oppose same-sex marriage. Your opinion on the matter is not more valid than theirs and there is no objecitve way of deciding which opinion is correct.
There are plenty of murderers, thieves and rapists too. As a society we don't allow them to continue with their activities because we think there is a moral difference between those that harm others and those that don't.
(The law of the land is irrelevant, since whoever is in power gets to impose their version of morality on everyone else; or laws are arrived by concensus, which is also irrelevant, because consensus doesn't prove that a law is morally correct.)
The laws of modern, democratic, secular societies are based on the prevention of harm to its citizens. We decided what behaviours we prohibit based on whether those activities interfere with the well-being of others. With that as the standard we don't need to look to the supernatural.
There is no harm caused by two people loving each other so there is no need for laws that would harm them.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 753 by Dredge, posted 04-26-2017 12:41 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 811 by Dredge, posted 04-30-2017 12:50 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9580
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 6.6


Message 761 of 1006 (806497)
04-26-2017 2:16 AM
Reply to: Message 755 by Dredge
04-26-2017 12:45 AM


Dredge writes:
If atheists are correct and there is no God or gods, then religious morality is man-made - therefore they are as just as valid as any other expression of human morality.
We do not make moral judgements purely by opinion. They are primarily based on the concepts of harm and well-being. We do not allow the murderer to murder. He harms society, regardless of his opinions on the matter.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 755 by Dredge, posted 04-26-2017 12:45 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10297
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.1


(1)
Message 762 of 1006 (806564)
04-26-2017 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 755 by Dredge
04-26-2017 12:45 AM


Dredge writes:
If atheists are correct and there is no God or gods, then religious morality is man-made - therefore they are as just as valid as any other expression of human morality.
If humans are incapable of determining for themselves what is and isn't moral, then how can they claim that what God commands is moral?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 755 by Dredge, posted 04-26-2017 12:45 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 809 by Dredge, posted 04-30-2017 12:43 AM Taq has replied
 Message 810 by Dredge, posted 04-30-2017 12:45 AM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10297
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.1


(2)
Message 763 of 1006 (806565)
04-26-2017 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 750 by Dredge
04-26-2017 12:29 AM


Re: You really need to drop that straw man by now
Dredge writes:
We share 60% of our DNA with bananas and even more with fruit flys - this helps to understand why humans and chimps are so different despite them sharing 98.8% of their each other's DNA.
I have yet to see a reference comparing the whole banana genome to the human genome, so that number seems to be pulled out of thin air.
I still don't understand how you take a percentage and determine how physically similar or dissimilar two species should be. Perhaps you could enlighten us?
And it means humans and chimps may not be anywhere nearly as closely related to each other as the 98.8% figure suggests - and evolutionists would have us believe.
Why? Chimps share more DNA with humans than the do with other apes. There are more differences between the chimp and gorilla genome than there is between the chimp and human genome. Chimps are more closely related to humans than they are to other apes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 750 by Dredge, posted 04-26-2017 12:29 AM Dredge has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 764 of 1006 (806588)
04-26-2017 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 749 by Dredge
04-26-2017 12:03 AM


Do you accept that our minds are capable of both producing and experiencing meaning - regardless of how they came about?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 749 by Dredge, posted 04-26-2017 12:03 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 813 by Dredge, posted 04-30-2017 1:03 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 765 of 1006 (806594)
04-26-2017 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 734 by Dredge
04-24-2017 12:55 AM


Re: You really need to drop that straw man by now
Okay, I admit I'm beginning to lose track of where this is going. How much DNA should we share with a banana before we can find meaning in our lives.

I believe in a relatively equal society, supported by institutions that limit extremes of wealth and poverty. I believe in democracy, civil liberties, and the rule of law. That makes me a liberal, and I’m proud of it. -- Paul Krugman

This message is a reply to:
 Message 734 by Dredge, posted 04-24-2017 12:55 AM Dredge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 766 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-26-2017 5:25 PM Chiroptera has seen this message but not replied
 Message 767 by 1.61803, posted 04-26-2017 5:43 PM Chiroptera has seen this message but not replied

  
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