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Author Topic:   Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 648 of 716 (807057)
04-30-2017 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 644 by ringo
04-30-2017 2:23 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
Weird . The correspondence between the woman of Revelation 12 and the image of Virgo rising with the moon at her feet on Rosh Hashana 3 BC is undeniable. and there is no other possible equation with anything astrological-- except the exact same image of Virgo at some other time if it exists --though it keeps being said there should be lots of them. If that were true somebody here would have produced it by now in their zeal not to have to acknowledge that this is a divine communication that would shake their world to its core if they acknowledged it.
There are no copies of this.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 650 of 716 (807062)
04-30-2017 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 649 by ringo
04-30-2017 3:12 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
You trivialized it, mocked it. Same thing.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 653 of 716 (807097)
04-30-2017 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 651 by ringo
04-30-2017 3:24 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
What "outlandish" fiction are you talkinga about? The woman of Revelation 12 is a VISION, the constellation Virgo is a sign found in the stars. What's the fiction? That John had a vision? That he had that particujlar vision? That Virgo doesn't designate a constellation in the Zodiac? What on earth are you talking aboujt?

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 656 of 716 (807210)
05-01-2017 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 655 by ringo
05-01-2017 11:38 AM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
But they are there fiction or not. They are even in the astronomy program. Since they are there, what they are has reality and since the reality of Virgo at Rosh Hashana exactly fits the description of the woman in Revelation 12, calling it "fiction" is some kind of self-delusion.

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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 658 of 716 (807230)
05-01-2017 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 657 by ringo
05-01-2017 12:16 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
The celestial events are there but the connection to anything in the Bible is pure fantasy. An eclipse is real but thinking it's a dragon eating the sun is not.
The connection is on the astronomy program. It's right there, the entire image, it isn't made up, it's exactly the image of the Revelation 12 woman, exactly, sun, moon stars, the works..
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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 Message 660 by NoNukes, posted 05-01-2017 1:54 PM Faith has replied
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 Message 670 by ringo, posted 05-02-2017 11:41 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 659 of 716 (807231)
05-01-2017 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 657 by ringo
05-01-2017 12:16 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
So John had a vision of this fictional astrological woman. It happens to be describable in the same terms as his vision. You can't make it disappear by calling it fiction. Fiction, fine, but made up or not it's there, it has a name, it has attributes, and the Revelation 12 woman has the same ones.
Categorical thinking set in concrete seems to be everyone's problem here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 657 by ringo, posted 05-01-2017 12:16 PM ringo has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 662 of 716 (807234)
05-01-2017 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 660 by NoNukes
05-01-2017 1:54 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
Sigh.
You can't "absent the astrology." The image, the fiction, the constellation, the imputed meaning, of Virgo as traced in the stars, on the day of Rosh Hashana in September of 3BC, is exactly described by the woman in Revelation 12.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 663 of 716 (807235)
05-01-2017 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 660 by NoNukes
05-01-2017 1:54 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
This is getting funny.
Try again.
John had a vision of the astrological fiction of Virgo, the fictional image of Virgo, the traditionally imputed meaning of the fictional sign of Virgo, the imputed astrological meaning of the constellation of Virgo, as it appeared in relation to the sun and moon on Rosh Hashana 3 BC. There is no doubt that's what his vision was about. That fictional astrological character called Virgo on that day.
Let's see how many other ways this can be wacked up.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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 Message 660 by NoNukes, posted 05-01-2017 1:54 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 665 of 716 (807248)
05-01-2017 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 664 by NoNukes
05-01-2017 3:11 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
How much of the above did John see? Where are the birth pains?
I'd just be happy to get across that the first image is clearly of the constellation Virgo in her usual presentation as a woman, on Rosh Hashana of 3BC because on that date the sun and moon are in the positions described in the vision.
I assume John saw everything he described, it doesn't all have to be literally in the stars.
Larson first decided that date was Jesus' birth, then decided maybe the conception. If the birth the birth pangs are of course implicit.
ABE: As I pointed out in a few posts, the moon at her feet represents her child, the question is whether the new moon represents birth or conception. The reason Larson decided probably conception is that he found the bright "star" nine months later. /ABE
Since understanding that the woman represents an astrological sign I've wondered about the dragon. There's a dragon among the (non-Zodiac) constellations it could be referring to, but that's not part of the Star presentation. abe: I have a "star chart" somewhere that shows the constellations but can't find it at the moment. /abe
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 668 of 716 (807311)
05-02-2017 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 666 by NoNukes
05-01-2017 7:21 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
I'd just be happy to get across that the first image is clearly of the constellation Virgo in her usual presentation as a woman, on Rosh Hashana of 3BC because the sun and moon are in the positions described in the vision.
You cannot get there. Again what it seems you want to do is to link about an astrological dream to real astronomy so you can date the birth of Christ. Heck, you even believe that you can identify conception.
I don't have any motivations about dating anything. I saw the Bethlehem Star video, finally concluded he made some important discoveries about the Star and related events in Christ's life and death, encountered a mountain of objections here and have been trying to make a case for what was discovered by Larson because I found it credible.
Not a big thing to date the conception since it would have presumably been the result of the Annunciation. So it depends on whether the crescent moon signifies the birth or the conception, that's all. I think the other phenomena associated with that Rosh Hashana point to the conception. But I'm not particularly arguing for any particular date even though I think Larson's are well evidenced.
This discussion is simply about the objections to the Bible's apparently referencing an astrological sign. I get the reason for the objections, but I also find them bullheaded after the evidence has been made so clear.
I think there are several problems.
1) a dream can easily be prophecy without reflecting an astronomical event at all. The story is the important part.
Of course, but in this case the evidence points to the astronomical event. And it was a vision, not a dream.
2) astrology is just made up stories about myths. The connection of that to real world events is completely bogus. At least that is my take on things. Obviously, the Chaldean's believed differently.
None of this is relevant as long as it is only too clear that John's vision was of an astrological sign. So it's a myth, so it is nevertheless attached to a grouping of stars called Virgo and that's what he saw. I didn't make this up, it appears to be what he saw.
The connection being pushed here is superficial and apparently limited to small parts of the text.
The Star study was about the Star. In the process of searching for it on the astronomy program Larson turned up an unexpected astrological correspondence with the scripture. He wasn't looking for it, it is there, and related to the birth and death of Christ. He wasn't studying the Book of Revelation or any other part of the scripture that might also entail astrological symbols for all I know. He found what he found, it's objectively there, superficial or not.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 672 of 716 (807350)
05-02-2017 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 670 by ringo
05-02-2017 11:41 AM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
Ringo ringo ringo. Sigh.
The contellations are made up, but oddly enough they are treated as objective realities. Even on the astronomy program the constellation of Virgo is a particular group of stars that is assigned the characteristics of a woman. It's really quite irrelevant that it's all made up because it is something people can actually point to in the sky. When the constellation Virgo is shown rising in the sky on the astronomy program in the Star film, on Rosh Hashana 3 BC, it is CALLED "Virgo," and it WAS "clothed with the sun and with the moon at her feet."
The whole sky is marked out with constellations made up of particular groups of stars given names of mythical figures. It doesn't matter that it's all made up because the star figures don't change, they are always the same, they always designate the same characters, they are all treated as separate constellations that can be identified separately. They may differ from culture to culture but they are what they are in a given culture.
ABE: SO, once a constellation, a particular group of stars, is recognized as having a particular character and identity it becomes part of a person's picture of the sky, so it is quite possible for John to have had a vision of the particular constellation of Virgo with the character of a woman rising with the sun and with the moon at her feet.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 673 of 716 (807352)
05-02-2017 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 669 by PaulK
05-02-2017 8:07 AM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
It's always possible to demand that something should have other characteristics than it has, to the point that you can utterly ignore the characteristics it does have as insufficient by your exacting standards. The fact is that the actual phenomenon, the woman in Revelation 12, fits the description of Virgo on a particular date, doesn't disappear when you insist it be something other than it is, but I guess you can make it disappear for yourself at least, and do a good job of confusing other people with it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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 Message 669 by PaulK, posted 05-02-2017 8:07 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 677 of 716 (807356)
05-02-2017 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 675 by Tangle
05-02-2017 12:56 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
Oh good grief. The reality of the star positions doesn't change the fact that the patterns are treated as objectively there and can be referred to as identifiable entities. It's an optical illusion but who cares. Virgo is still Virgo to the naked eye.
Sigh.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 678 of 716 (807357)
05-02-2017 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 676 by PaulK
05-02-2017 12:58 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
It doesn't matter if that date IS the date, there has to be a date on which the figure of the woman is exactly as described because the terms clearly point to the astrological sign of Virgo at Rosh Hashana in some year or other.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 681 of 716 (807363)
05-02-2017 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 680 by Tangle
05-02-2017 1:24 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
John was an apostle, he had been exiled to the island of Patmos for preaching Christ. He had the visions of the book of Revelation while there. He was about ninety at the time. A real person. He wrote about real things as well as the visions. One of the visions was of a woman described in terms that turn out to be the spittin image of the traditional interpretation of the constellation of Virgo on Rosh Hashana of 3BC. It's possible to be so "realistic" you miss reality altogether. Life is full of paradoxes.

This message is a reply to:
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