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Author Topic:   Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 610 of 716 (806948)
04-29-2017 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 608 by Faith
04-29-2017 3:33 PM


Re: The Star: Common Occurrences Together Become Rare
Really, anyone thinking biblically about these signs would see Leo as the Lion of Judah, Virgo as the virgin mother, Jupiter and Regulus as a relationship between God the Father and another king and so on. You and others keep saying there are other interpretations, I don't see any for a Bible believer.
No, folks thinking Biblically would not necessarily see it that way. The association of a group of stars being a lion is completely non-Biblical. It is from astrology dating back thousands of years probably to ancient Sumeria. Perhaps a more accurate statement is that folks included to being impressed with astrology might be attracted to your interpretation. Maybe a Chaldean?
Regulus is indeed known as the "King Star" but for no good reason other than a bunch of ancient, folks (Babylonians, Sumerians, Greeks) made that association. Jupiter as the "king" of the solar system, given that the solar system actually is centered around the sun, is dubious, but at least Jupiter is the largest planet. But isn't the kingly-ness of Jupiter based on Greek mythology?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 608 by Faith, posted 04-29-2017 3:33 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 612 by Davidjay, posted 04-29-2017 9:51 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 617 by Faith, posted 04-30-2017 12:26 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 618 of 716 (806979)
04-30-2017 1:56 AM
Reply to: Message 612 by Davidjay
04-29-2017 9:51 PM


Re: The Star: Common Occurrences Together Become Rare
No nukes, the Lord created the sdtar groupings and as you will have read by now
I'm not disputing that point. What I am saying is that the Lions, Tigers and Bears that you think are prophetic are man's nonsense.
Faith and I agreed on the Witness in the Stars by Bullinger.
Yes, but you are a numerologist, while Faith believes in witches and astrology. I don't think you've made a very significant recommendation.
or go out in the starry starry nights and marvel at the glory of God.
I make a regular practice of doing exactly that. Do you?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 612 by Davidjay, posted 04-29-2017 9:51 PM Davidjay has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 619 of 716 (806980)
04-30-2017 2:01 AM
Reply to: Message 617 by Faith
04-30-2017 12:26 AM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
The constellation of Virgo rising in the sky on September 23 of 3 BC, as seen on the astronomy program in the video, rises engulfed with the sun and with the new moon at its feet. The description couldn't be more exact. It's just a random bunch of stars, yes, but since they do now make up this recognizable constellation, its exact correspondence with the image in Revelation can't just be a coincidence, it has to be what John saw. I don't see how you can rationalize that one away.
By now, you ought to know that I could not be less impressed. Some stars showed up, fine. (Actually if they were engulfed with the sun, they were not even visible, so showed up is not really the word. But so what? You only find those stars significant because somebody thought they looked like a virgin to support some story utterly unrelated to the Bible.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 617 by Faith, posted 04-30-2017 12:26 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 620 by Faith, posted 04-30-2017 2:10 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 621 of 716 (806987)
04-30-2017 3:12 AM
Reply to: Message 620 by Faith
04-30-2017 2:10 AM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
I think them significant because in their accepted form as a constellation called Virgo they exactly fit the description of the woman in Revelation 12.
That is not significantly different from what I said. The problem is that the association of the stars with a virgin or a woman is complete horse crap. It is based on a mythology that in any other context you would recognize as pagan.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 620 by Faith, posted 04-30-2017 2:10 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 629 by Faith, posted 04-30-2017 9:51 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 640 of 716 (807039)
04-30-2017 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 629 by Faith
04-30-2017 9:51 AM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
It's impossible to explain then, how it is that the Woman of Revelation 12 is the exact spittin image of this mythological sign.
Astrology is just a bunch of tale weaving. You can find matches with just about anything.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 629 by Faith, posted 04-30-2017 9:51 AM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 660 of 716 (807232)
05-01-2017 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 658 by Faith
05-01-2017 1:42 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
The connection is on the astronomy program. It's right there, the entire image, it isn't made up, it's exactly the image of the Revelation 12 woman, exactly, sun, moon stars, the works..
Absent the astrology, where is the woman?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 658 by Faith, posted 05-01-2017 1:42 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 662 by Faith, posted 05-01-2017 1:57 PM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 663 by Faith, posted 05-01-2017 2:08 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 661 of 716 (807233)
05-01-2017 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 658 by Faith
05-01-2017 1:42 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
The connection is on the astronomy program. It's right there, the entire image, it isn't made up, it's exactly the image of the Revelation 12 woman, exactly, sun, moon stars, the works..
Absent the astrology, where is the woman? Do the stars in question look to you anything like a woman?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 658 by Faith, posted 05-01-2017 1:42 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 664 of 716 (807236)
05-01-2017 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 663 by Faith
05-01-2017 2:08 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
quote:
12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
How much of the above did John see? Where are the birth pains?
quote:
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
What about this stuff?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 663 by Faith, posted 05-01-2017 2:08 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 665 by Faith, posted 05-01-2017 6:26 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 666 of 716 (807252)
05-01-2017 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 665 by Faith
05-01-2017 6:26 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
I'd just be happy to get across that the first image is clearly of the constellation Virgo in her usual presentation as a woman, on Rosh Hashana of 3BC because the sun and moon are in the positions described in the vision.
You cannot get there. Again what it seems you want to do is to link about an astrological dream to real astronomy so you can date the birth of Christ. Heck, you even believe that you can identify conception.
I think there are several problems.
1) a dream can easily be prophecy without reflecting an astronomical event at all. The story is the important part.
2) astrology is just made up stories about myths. The connection of that to real world events is completely bogus. At least that is my take on things. Obviously, the Chaldean's believed differently.
3) the connection being pushed here is superficial and apparently limited to small parts of the text.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 665 by Faith, posted 05-01-2017 6:26 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 668 by Faith, posted 05-02-2017 7:45 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 697 of 716 (807592)
05-04-2017 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 694 by Faith
05-03-2017 10:38 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
Where do you get your arrogance? Millions upon millions know that John is a real person who wrote Revelation and four other books of the Bible.
Faith, this is a debate site. There are arguments for and against Revelations being written by Apostle John both based on the text and on non-textual information. Most Bible scholars believe that John the Apostle did write revelations. But disagreeing does not make you arrogant.
Millions of folks believe in any Bible doctrine, yet millions of other folk who revere Christ equally well disagree. At least one set of folks is wrong. Is the answer that the wrong group is the most arrogant, or the most vociferous?
Just present your argument. You will convince some but not all. Then chill a bit.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 694 by Faith, posted 05-03-2017 10:38 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 698 by PaulK, posted 05-04-2017 9:31 AM NoNukes has replied
 Message 700 by Davidjay, posted 05-04-2017 11:21 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 703 of 716 (807669)
05-04-2017 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 698 by PaulK
05-04-2017 9:31 AM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
I think that is wrong, most Bible scholars do not believe that the Apostle wrote the Revelation.
Well before posting, I did check first. Most of the links I found were from religious sites, so I went with the opinion expressed in Wikipedia. Why do you think that is wrong?
And the text does not go any further than claiming the name "John", which was not unique even then.
The text only names John, yes, but given the paucity of those mentions, I would consider the text to no worse than neutral on the issue.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 698 by PaulK, posted 05-04-2017 9:31 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 705 by PaulK, posted 05-04-2017 4:18 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 704 of 716 (807670)
05-04-2017 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 700 by Davidjay
05-04-2017 11:21 AM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
No Nukes, you are telling the wrong side of the debate to chill a bit.
I respectfully disagree. Faith was out of control. That has been observed to happen quite frequently.
but it is friustrating when the opposition to prophecy and design denies everything that is written, with their so called debates of one sentence.
You are not required to type your frustration into a post. For one thing, doing so is counterproductive. Secondly, not even Christians agree on either the interpretation of Revelations or the authorship of the text. Taking disagreement personally, particularly on a debate site is silly.
Thats their motivation and hence they deny deny deny without thinking because their minds are absolutely closed.
I expect you to peg the irony meter with your responses, and this response did not disappoint. You don't even acknowledge obvious math errors. Yet you lecture others on being close minded.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 700 by Davidjay, posted 05-04-2017 11:21 AM Davidjay has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 707 of 716 (807677)
05-04-2017 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 705 by PaulK
05-04-2017 4:18 PM


Re: The Star: The Woman of Revelation 12 as Virgo
It's not even the opinion I saw on Wikipedia
I checked again, and I don't see the sentence that I saw before... Perhaps I clicked on a different link by mistake...
My bad. I stand by my point that the issue is one for debate and not for a display of righteous indignation that folks disagree with you.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 705 by PaulK, posted 05-04-2017 4:18 PM PaulK has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 708 of 716 (807679)
05-04-2017 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 706 by PaulK
05-04-2017 5:03 PM


Re: Summing up Larson
Apparently it would not have been very striking in Jerusalem, with the eclipse ending before it became visible. Larson thinks otherwise, and even assumes that it would have been impressive which I think is hardly true even if the last moments are just about visible on the horizon.
I would add to this the fact that the sky/moon appearing red near the horizon is a pretty common thing. If the eclipse were barely visible on the horizon, I doubt that the red color would appear anomalous. Not sure even how we know that the eclipse appeared red anyway. Admittedly I did not check into that.
Here is a link to a detailed written description of what Larson presents in the video. Maybe pointing to this will be more efficient than posting multiple links to the video, particularly when the directions lack any time references to salient points.
http://theseekermag.com/...as-for-theories-by-melody-dareing
Here is an AIG critque of Larson's work:
An Evaluation of The Star of Bethlehem DVD | Answers in Genesis
From the summary:
quote:
In conclusion, Larson’s thesis is fraught with problems. It completely relies upon the late death of Herod, something that few historians have embraced. It has some obvious astrological connections that we have not discussed in any detail here. These astrological connections are related to the so-called gospel in the stars theory, which is without foundation, and I have discussed elsewhere. Though Larson does not date the birth of Jesus to December 25, there is a suspicious clinging to that date that has no real connection to the birth of Jesus. This star doesn’t fit the description of Matthew 2.
And finally, the AIG warning about the whole idea of latching onto scientific evidence (good for a laugh at least).
quote:
Finally, Mr. Larson means well, and many people who have watched the DVD have gleaned much encouragement from it, but it does take us into a dangerous direction. This DVD attempts to give some scientific answer for why the Bible must be true. The Bible never makes such claims for itself, for it stands as propositional truth, and we reject it at our peril. The DVD attempts to bolster peoples’ faith by showing that there is a natural explanation for the star of Bethlehem, as if we doubted that it actually happened.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 706 by PaulK, posted 05-04-2017 5:03 PM PaulK has not replied

  
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