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Author Topic:   Science is Revealed Truth
Tangle
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Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(6)
Message 63 of 150 (807974)
05-07-2017 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by RAZD
05-07-2017 2:14 PM


Re: The history of evolution is about the science not the people
In short, evolution is a discovery. Religion is an invention.
The reason no-one else has come up with an alternative to evolution is because, like electricity and the rings around Saturn, it was found. Once found you have it. Discoveries are unique.
Inventions are different, there's no logical end to them - inventions are only limited by imagination. Hence 38,000 flavours of Christianity alone.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by RAZD, posted 05-07-2017 2:14 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(3)
Message 86 of 150 (808810)
05-13-2017 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Davidjay
05-13-2017 8:52 AM


Re: Revealed truth.... we came from extinct clade Euarchonta
Davidjay writes:
And as a non evolutionist I am suppose to just accept this, without question.
Absolutely not. There is no need to accept anything in science just because someone tells you so. That's how religion works not science.
If you have doubts - or even extreme scepticism - you should get to work understanding what it is that you are being told and then study the actual evidence that supports it.
At the moment it is clear that you don't actually understand the ideas that you are rejecting - hence your mistakes of how bats are related to us in the mammal family tree. You don't even understand the base principles so your attempts at argument fail at the first line.
Instead of claiming victory when you hear us all laughing at you, you need to work out why we're laughing. If I was you, I'd read the theory from a proper scientific source - this one is good
Evolution 101 - Understanding Evolution
You can't hope to defeat your opponant if you haven't the first clue about who, what and where he is. At the moment you're tilting at a windmill and we're all looking on, a bit puzzled.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Davidjay, posted 05-13-2017 8:52 AM Davidjay has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(4)
Message 92 of 150 (808968)
05-15-2017 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Davidjay
05-15-2017 9:05 AM


Re: Revealed truth.... we came from extinct clade Euarchonta
Davidjay writes:
I say our ancestors were human, and so who do you say our ancestors were ?
This is as simple as I can make it. Do try to understand it so that you don't keep making silly mistakes.
quote:
Chimpanzees are apes and one of our closest animal relatives - their scientific name is Pan troglodytes.
Now, imagine that you are standing face to face with a female chimpanzee - let’s call her Pan. With your left hand you are holding the hand of your mother and your mother is holding the right hand of her mother and so on for thousands of generations back into the past. By doing this, you know as an absolute certainty that you are descended directly on your mother’s side to everyone in the chain.
Imagine that Pan is doing the same but with her right hand.
You now have two imaginary lines of women and female chimps holding hands going backwards in time - like a railway track with women and chimps lining each side.
You can now walk down the centre of the rails and look carefully at your mother's family line and the chimp's family line going back millions of years.
So what would do you see?
Walking back about 200,000 years on the human side you see a mother who’s husband was a chap science named Heidelberg Man (Homo heidelbergensis ) she’s distinctly human, using tools and standing upright, probably hairless and very tall — the males are up to 7 feet tall. This is the first different species that we’ve come across in our chain. But you wouldn’t be able to tell exactly when Homo sapiens (people) merged into Heidelberg because each mother would look almost identical to the next — you can’t see the join. The changes from mother to mother are so gradual that you only see a change by comparing mothers thousands or millions of years apart. We only now know that Heidelberg is different from us because we’ve found his fossilised remains and we can compare it to ourselves today.
This is why there’s no such thing as a transitional fossil or a missing link; every fossil is a transitional fossil and every living species is in transition to the next — if we had a fossil for every mother in the lines, even the experts wouldn’t be able to say where a separate species had been formed. We can only guess with hindsight.
If you find this hard to grasp or you think it’s impossible for one species to change slowly into another we can see it happening today. For example, we call species that change slowly over geographic areas rather than over time, ring species.
Here in the UK the Herring Gull and the Lesser Black-backed Gull are distinct and non-interbreeding species. But if you physically follow the Herring Gull west towards North America it gradually blurs into something more like a Lesser Black-backed Gull. It carries on changing towards Siberia and when it finally returns to Western Europe the Herring Gull has become a Lesser Black-backed Gull and the two species don’t interbreed. At no point in the ring can you say exactly where it changed species — it’s a gradual merging of characteristics over distance.
As you walk back further, at about 500,000 years ago, you’d see a branch form and go off sideways from our human line, these are the Neanderthals (Homo neanderthalensis). They lived along side us but developed separately. There may even be Neanderthal mothers in our line, because we think that for some time there was interbreeding.
And so on down the line of mothers through increasingly apelike creatures until at about 2.5 million years ago we reach an animal called the Southern African ape (Australopithecus africanis). This creature is small — around 4 feet, with a brain a third the size of ours and although she stands upright like us, she’s covered in hair and is distinctly apelike. We used to think that this is roughly where chimps split from the human line but modern molecular genetics tells us that it was earlier.
We have to walk much farther down the lines to get to where most evolution scientists think chimps branch off - somewhere about 7m years ago. This mother would have looked something like a chap called ‘Taumai’ (Sahelanthropus tchadensis). He has the same brain size as a modern chimp but his face is a little more like a human than a chimp.
No one knows for sure whether Taumai is the point where chimps start off on their own line but we do know one thing for certain:
Wherever the split actually happened, at this point in the two lines of human and chimp descendants you would see that the right hand of a mother from the chimp line is now holding the left hand of a mother from the human line.
The lines have met — the ancient chimp and the ancient human have the same mother.
This mother starts the lines to both Pan and you, so Pan is your distant cousin. And both you, the human, and Pan, the ape are still here.
So the apes developed along one line and we humans along another. We were in competition with each other whilst in the forest but the reason that there wasn’t only one final surviving winner is because our ancestors moved from the trees onto the open savannah grasslands whilst the apes stayed in the forest.
Once in the open we HAD to adapt to survive in the new environment; walking upright in order to run quickly and for long durations, losing hair to keep cool, developing tool use in order to hunt. The apes in the forest were already adapted to their environment so they developed along their own arboreal paths.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Davidjay, posted 05-15-2017 9:05 AM Davidjay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Davidjay, posted 05-15-2017 9:44 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 94 of 150 (808980)
05-15-2017 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Davidjay
05-15-2017 9:44 AM


Re: Revealed truth.... we came from extinct clade Euarchonta
Davidjay writes:
Treeshrews were suppose to be our primate ancestor, not a cousin or a brother, but a forefather.... all four of you said it, and finally answered what evolution believes in, as our common ancestor.
The description of the chimp and man was to show you those two branches from the same limb. So that you can picture how branching occurs and see how we are related through time. Did you understand it?
The shrewlike creature you're referring to is the common ancestor of both chimps and humans. You simply have to follow the limb even further back in time. What is your problem understanding this? You seem to be trying to make the same mistake you made with bats.
You must realise that you can't argue with us unless you understand the basics

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Davidjay, posted 05-15-2017 9:44 AM Davidjay has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Coyote, posted 05-15-2017 10:45 AM Tangle has not replied

  
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