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Author Topic:   Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 106 of 1311 (807901)
05-06-2017 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by RAZD
05-06-2017 11:35 AM


Re: What mechanism stops evolutionary change?
What mechanism stops evolutionary change?
Running out of genetic diversity/ allelic options as new populations develop from old, especially as they near the point of "speciation" where their allelic options are severely reduced.
You asked. But since this is off topic I'll see if I can find another place to take it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by RAZD, posted 05-06-2017 11:35 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 107 of 1311 (807902)
05-06-2017 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Faith
05-06-2017 1:49 PM


Re: What mechanism stops evolutionary change?
Hi Faith
I assume you are replying to the subthread title, as it doesn't relate to my question on Okapi and the Giraffidae clade, and descent from their common ancestor population.
Running out of genetic diversity/ allelic options as new populations develop from old, especially as they near the point of "speciation" where their allelic options are severely reduced.
This is an old argument of yours that has been much replied to ...
... But since this is off topic I'll see if I can find another place to take it.
Good idea. Can I suggest resurrecting your old Evolution Requires Reduction in Genetic Diversity thread? I believe this thesis of yours was discussed in great detail there.
Enjoy

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This message is a reply to:
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CRR
Member (Idle past 2242 days)
Posts: 579
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 108 of 1311 (807921)
05-06-2017 10:33 PM


Speedy Species Surprise
Percy:
Does this mean that you believe there was one original giraffe kind on the ark, and that the four species we see today are descended from that one original kind? If so, doesn't this mean you're advocating some kind of accelerated evolution?
RAZD:
In other words, they are members of a clade that descended from a common ancestor population,
Please see my reply at Message 724 in "The TRVE history of the Flood..."
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Added link.

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Davidjay, posted 05-07-2017 8:48 AM CRR has replied
 Message 111 by RAZD, posted 05-07-2017 9:10 AM CRR has replied

  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2329 days)
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 109 of 1311 (807933)
05-07-2017 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by CRR
05-06-2017 10:33 PM


Re: Speedy Species Surprise
Speedy mutations, accelerated evolution are double speak terms that assume there is evolution in the first place, and then make a wilder assumption that there is slow and fast mutational change, rather than just the original luck and chance random beneficial mutations making them get selected by the God of Selection who then rapidly slects them for viability and LIFE.
Im not buying it and no intelligent person worldwide should be buying it. There is no such thing as speedy mutations, or speedy selections, or speedy evolution......
Maybe speedy in evolutionary double speak is a million years rather than the usual billion years.
Watch out for evolutionary double speak and the semantic games they play and want readers to 'swallow'. Go slow and decipher their double speak wording and then its easy to decipher their lies or untruths.

.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by CRR, posted 05-06-2017 10:33 PM CRR has replied

Replies to this message:
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Davidjay 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2329 days)
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 110 of 1311 (807935)
05-07-2017 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Davidjay
05-07-2017 8:48 AM


Evolutionists have no time frames
Remember evolutionists have no timelines, time means nothing to them and they fear discussing their history.
Hence they now say the Big Bang was not instaneous and an explosion but a slow expansion, as a Big Bang explosion sounds to uncontroled and random and destructive to have brought forth such amazing life on Earth etc... Hence they make up a slow explosion semantic wording to catch the gullible and the intimidated.

.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Davidjay, posted 05-07-2017 8:48 AM Davidjay has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-07-2017 11:51 AM Davidjay has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 111 of 1311 (807937)
05-07-2017 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by CRR
05-06-2017 10:33 PM


Re: Speedy Species Surprise
Please see my reply at Message 724 in "The TRVE history of the Flood..."
Posted here because it was getting too far off topic in "Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution."
But you didn't answer my question (highlighted below) which is on topic. Let me repeat my post:
quote:
Message 105: In other words, they are members of a clade that descended from a common ancestor population, which you guess/assume/wish was on a (no evidence) fantasy ark.
Is the Okapi also a member of the Giraffidae clade, and is it descended from the same common ancestor population?
Is the Samotherium? their common ancestor?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : added Samotherium reference from bluegenes in msg 93

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by CRR, posted 05-06-2017 10:33 PM CRR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by CRR, posted 05-07-2017 7:20 PM RAZD has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 112 of 1311 (807963)
05-07-2017 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by Davidjay
05-07-2017 8:51 AM


Re: Evolutionists have no time frames
Remember evolutionists have no timelines, time means nothing to them and they fear discussing their history.
That's a very stupid lie you just told.
Whom do you hope to deceive?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Davidjay, posted 05-07-2017 8:51 AM Davidjay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Davidjay, posted 05-07-2017 12:00 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2329 days)
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 113 of 1311 (807965)
05-07-2017 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Dr Adequate
05-07-2017 11:51 AM


Re: Evolutionists have no time frames
If you're not afraid of your own evolutionary history then ask the admin to promote the NEW PROPOSED TOPIC called the Origins of Evolution or the History of Evolution.
EvC Forum: Discuss the origins of EVOLUTION
But please, please refraim from always calling me a liar, or saying I am telling a lie. Just stay objective and stop the subjective.
PS) Million and billion year timelines are not timelines but guesses at the best.. and these combined with missing LINKS of millions or billions of years is proof that evolution has no concept of time except their thinking that the impossible is possible if given enough time or more time or more time or more billions of years

.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-07-2017 11:51 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-07-2017 3:04 PM Davidjay has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(6)
Message 114 of 1311 (807973)
05-07-2017 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Davidjay
05-07-2017 12:00 PM


Re: Evolutionists have no time frames
But please, please refraim from always calling me a liar, or saying I am telling a lie.
Stop telling stupid lies then.
Just stay objective and stop the subjective.
It is an objective fact that you tell stupid lies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Davidjay, posted 05-07-2017 12:00 PM Davidjay has not replied

  
CRR
Member (Idle past 2242 days)
Posts: 579
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 115 of 1311 (807990)
05-07-2017 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by RAZD
05-07-2017 9:10 AM


Re: Speedy Species Surprise
RAZD, See "The TRUE history of the flood" Message 756
Edited by CRR, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by RAZD, posted 05-07-2017 9:10 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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CRR
Member (Idle past 2242 days)
Posts: 579
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 116 of 1311 (807992)
05-07-2017 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Davidjay
05-07-2017 8:48 AM


Re: Speedy Species Surprise
Davidjay, we certainly do see mutations and adaptation, and I think there is sufficient evidence to accept speciation within the created kind.
Just the development of new breeds of dogs and cattle shows that adaptation can happen. The Belgian Blue cattle breed is one example where a mutation that would be harmful in the wild has been selected by breeders to increase beef production.
However what we don't see, or at least I don't know of an example, is mutations adding significant amounts of new genetic information. This includes Nylonase and Cit+ in Lenski's LTE experiment.
What we see is consistent with the Biblical YEC view. I suggest you read the article I linked. The mistake that Darwin and evolutionists make is to extrapolate what is observed way beyond the evidence to reach false conclusions.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 117 of 1311 (807993)
05-07-2017 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by CRR
05-07-2017 7:32 PM


Re: Speedy Species Surprise
However what we don't see, or at least I don't know of an example, is mutations adding significant amounts of new genetic information.
Have you managed to attach a meaning to that phrase yet?
I like how you've hedged it with the word "significant".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by CRR, posted 05-07-2017 7:32 PM CRR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by CRR, posted 05-07-2017 9:49 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
CRR
Member (Idle past 2242 days)
Posts: 579
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 118 of 1311 (807994)
05-07-2017 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Dr Adequate
05-07-2017 9:35 PM


Re: Speedy Species Surprise
This is an area of ongoing research but progress is being made. See for example
"Measuring the functional sequence complexity of proteins", Measuring the functional sequence complexity of proteins | Theoretical Biology and Medical Modelling | Full Text .
The authors provide a method to measure functional sequence complexity and apply it to 35 protein families.
Conclusion
A mathematical measure of functional information, in units of Fits, of the functional sequence complexity observed in protein family biosequences has been designed and evaluated. This measure has been applied to diverse protein families to obtain estimates of their FSC. The Fit values we calculated ranged from 0, which describes no functional sequence complexity, to as high as 2,400 that described the transition to functional complexity. This method successfully distinguishes between FSC and OSC, RSC, thus, distinguishing between order, randomness, and biological function.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-07-2017 9:35 PM Dr Adequate has replied

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(3)
Message 119 of 1311 (807997)
05-07-2017 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by CRR
05-07-2017 9:49 PM


Re: Speedy Species Surprise
This is an area of ongoing research but progress is being made.
So you can't yet attach meaning to the things you like to say, but you hope to be able to do so at some point in the future. At which point presumably you also hope they'll turn out to be true.
Until that glorious day comes, would it not be more integrous to not say this stuff?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 120 of 1311 (808001)
05-08-2017 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by CRR
05-07-2017 7:20 PM


Giraffidae Clade, where do you draw the line?
RAZD, See "The TRUE history of the flood" Message 756
Links to messages are easy: [mid=807989] becomes Message 756, where 807989 is that gray number right after "Message 756 of 759" in the message header
quote:
RAZD asks:
Is the Okapi also a member of the Giraffidae clade, and is it descended from the same common ancestor population?
What about the Samotherium?
Okapi. Yes. However like all scientific questions this may have to be revised if contradictory information comes to light.
Samotherium? I don't know.
As I'm talking about evolution explaining the evidence rather than a fantasy flood scenario, I choose to reply here.
There's more ... what about Sivatherium:
quote:
Modern, giraffe-like restoration in the MEPAN
Sivatherium resembled the modern okapi, but was far larger, and more heavily built, being about 2.2 m (7.2 ft) tall at the shoulder, 3 m (9.8 ft) in total height with a weight up to 400—500 kg (880—1,100 lb).[6] A newer estimate has come up with an estimated body mass of about 1,250 kg (2,760 lb).[3] This would make Sivatherium the largest ruminant in history. This weight estimate is thought to be an underestimate, as it does not take into account the large horns possessed by males of the species. Sivatherium had a wide, antler-like pair of ossicones on its head, and a second pair of ossicones above its eyes. Its shoulders were very powerful to support the neck muscles required to lift the heavy skull.[4]
The skin rendering is immaterial (it could just as easily been similar to the Okapi) the the skeletal structure is accurate and the stance and musculature are probably appropriate.
Then there other Hydaspitherium clade, also classified as members of the Giraffidae Clade, Bramatherium, Helladotherium, and Hydaspitherium.
Interesting that there are 4 species in that genus, just as there are currently 4 species of giraffe.
Of course evolution and nested hierarchies from common ancestors explain these as all members of the same Giraffidae Clade and we can easily trace the family traits (such as ossicones rather than horns on the heads).
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
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