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Author Topic:   The Texas State Board of Education and textbooks
evolutionfacts
Junior Member (Idle past 2603 days)
Posts: 12
From: Long Beach, CA
Joined: 08-22-2010


Message 1 of 15 (578852)
09-02-2010 9:05 PM


A little overly dramatic perhaps but still, this article makes a point...
Ideological War Spells Doom for America’s Schoolkids
Why Is Texas So Influential?
Now, in the struggle between the President of the United States and the members of a local school board, you’d think the president would have a big advantage. Not so. Because the Texas State Board of Education (TSBE) enjoys a uniquely powerful position: Textbook manufacturers don’t want to make 50 different editions of each book catering to the whims of each state, so they instead make just a few editions, one for each of the major educational markets such as Texas, and then the smaller states have no other option but to use those versions. So the boards of education in California, Florida and most importantly Texas essentially get to dictate what goes into textbooks nationwide. The TSBE tells the textbook companies which subjects must be covered and how they must be covered to be acceptable in Texas, and textbook companies are compelled to play along; if they try to go rogue, Texas will reject the book, and the publisher will lose most of its sales....
....The Texas State Board of Education has infamously for years been trying to eliminate the theory of evolution from the state’s science textbooks and to replace it with the anti-scientific non-theory of intelligent design, better known as creationism. Although this issue was not addressed in the board’s most recent 2010 meeting, at their previous meeting, in 2009, after much contentious debate, they resolved the dispute by agreeing to a watered-down watering-down of evolution, allowing teachers to point out the deficiencies of all scientific theories, not just biological theories, as a way of sneaking at least some kind of anti-evolutionism into the curriculum over the objections of scientists nationwide.
Read more
Edited by evolutionfacts, : Added more article content
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Change topic title from "Texas" to "The Texas State Board of Education and textbooks"
Edited by evolutionfacts, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by archaeologist, posted 09-05-2010 1:04 AM evolutionfacts has replied

  
archaeologist
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 15 (579563)
09-05-2010 1:04 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by evolutionfacts
09-02-2010 9:05 PM


In one camp are conservative Christians and their champion, the Texas State Board of Education; in the other are politically radical multiculturalists and their de facto champion, President Barack Obama. The two competing visions couldn’t be more different. And the stakes couldn’t be higher. Unfortunately, whichever side wins your kid ends up losing.
That’s because this war is for the power to dictate what our children are taught and, by extension, how future generations of Americans will view the world. Long gone are the days when classrooms were for learning: now each side sees the public school system as a vast indoctrination camp in which future culture-warriors are trained. The problem is, two diametrically opposed philosophies are struggling for supremacy, and neither is willing to give an inch, so the end result is extremism, no matter which side temporarily comes out on top.
interesting comment. if the texas board of education is the christian champion then why did ICR have such a rough go of things?
the bolded words are probably correct up to a certain point for that is what it may look like but really, teaching the truth, creationism, is not indoctrinating.
Innumerable liberal critics condemn the anti-science and partisan revisionist lunacy coming out of the Texas school board meetings. And you know what? The criticisms hit home. It’s next to impossible for a sensible person to defend the TSBE’s often ridiculous proposals.
nothing like bias to manipulate the readers. not even a credible journal either. if atheists do not like it, then they can build their ownprivate schools and teach what theywant or homeschooltheir kids.
Edited by archaeologist, : No reason given.

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 Message 1 by evolutionfacts, posted 09-02-2010 9:05 PM evolutionfacts has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by dwise1, posted 09-05-2010 3:13 AM archaeologist has replied
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5974
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 3 of 15 (579577)
09-05-2010 3:13 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by archaeologist
09-05-2010 1:04 AM


... teaching the truth, creationism, is not indoctrinating.
Wrong in oh so many ways.
First, creationism is wrong. That has been proven far too many times. That is why creationist claims are termed "PRATTs", "points refuted a thousand times". Goebbels notwithstanding, a lie repeated a thousand times does not become the truth.
Second, in every case I know of in which creationist educational materials have been introduced, they have each and every time attempted to compell the student to believe in the material presented. If that is not indoctrination, then what the frak would be?

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archaeologist
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 15 (579580)
09-05-2010 3:29 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by dwise1
09-05-2010 3:13 AM


Wrong in oh so many ways.
First, creationism is wrong. That has been proven far too many times. That is why creationist claims are termed "PRATTs", "points refuted a thousand times". Goebbels notwithstanding, a lie repeated a thousand times does not become the truth
since all the evidence sides with creation we know that this statement is false.
Second, in every case I know of in which creationist educational materials have been introduced, they have each and every time attempted to compell the student to believe in the material presented. If that is not indoctrination, then what the frak would be?
as it is with evolutionists and secular universities but i have yet to see a public school teacher do what you describe. they would be fired or suspended

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Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Nij, posted 09-05-2010 6:20 AM archaeologist has replied
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Nij
Member (Idle past 4976 days)
Posts: 239
From: New Zealand
Joined: 08-20-2010


Message 5 of 15 (579597)
09-05-2010 6:20 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by archaeologist
09-05-2010 3:29 AM


Lol. Fail.
All of the evidence clearly aligns with evolution existing and being a fact. How you can possibly derive the opposite is far beyond me. Oh wait: the only evidence you consider credible is the Bible. Ah, yes, I see the problem now...
as it is with evolutionists and secular universities but i have yet to see a public school teacher do what you describe. they would be fired or suspended
"Evolutionists and secular universities" teach facts. Then they tell you what we think explains those facts best, without resort to ghosts, vampires, spirits or gods. No. They tell you that so far, that's the best explanation we've got, and they let you work on making a better explanation yourself once you understand the basics.
They don't throw a book at you and say "learn it or you are damned! believe it or go to hell! it is the only truth!". That's what churches and religious people do. Stop projecting your own failings onto us.
And guess what? Teachers actually continued to teach evolution after being told to teach creationism or those stupidly infantile "both or nothing" classes. They were suspended for it. The ones who were teaching creotardism continued doing it and were fully supported by the boards. The evolution teachers sued the school boards. Guess who won those cases? It certainly didn't lead to creationism being recognised as science.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4276 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 6 of 15 (579629)
09-05-2010 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by archaeologist
09-05-2010 3:29 AM


show the evidence
since all the evidence sides with creation we know that this statement is false.
What evidence? You claim evidence backs creation, but never show any. PLEASE!!! Show some.
{BUT NOT IN THIS TOPIC - Start a new one, "Archaeologist's evidence for creation" - Adminnemooseus}
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Big red note to start new topic for evidence for creation.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 821 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 7 of 15 (579633)
09-05-2010 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by archaeologist
09-05-2010 3:29 AM


since all the evidence sides with creation we know that this statement is false.
Put up or shut up, Arch.
Trot out some of your evidence, in a new thread, or quit saying that.

"The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 34064
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 8 of 15 (579637)
09-05-2010 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by archaeologist
09-05-2010 3:29 AM


since all the evidence sides with creation we know that this statement is false.
Actually archaeologist, all the evidence shows that both of the Biblical Creation myths are factually wrong. In Genesis 1 it claims that plants were made before the sun and that plants with seeds were the first plants made and that land plants were created before sea life. It also claims that the earth was created before the sun.
The actual evidence though shows that the earth was not created before the sun or at the same time as the rest of the heavens and that plants with seeds were a fairly late arriving form and that there was life in the seas for many, many millions of years before there was any life, plant or otherwise, on land. In fact, our Galaxy is billions of years older than the Earth.
The thing you will need to deal with as you raise kids is reality. Here is a quote from My Belief Statement
quote:
It was in the second year at St. Paul’s that I went back and really started rereading the Bible and listening to what was in there. That year Mr. French took a bunch of us boarders out one evening to look through his telescope.
The universe got much larger that night, far bigger than the imagination of one teenager, and old perceptions fell away. For the first time I saw a galaxy, not a star, but millions, maybe billions of stars.
That summer I got to spend some time exploring some of the old worn foothills of Maryland, Pennsylvania, Virginia and West Virginia. Age was everywhere, in the worn groove in the rock above the pond where Turkey Run cascaded down into the pool where my sister fed the Native Trout, in the layers exposed in the cuts that had been made to widen Route 40 and in the sidings along Hornets Nest Road where it wandered over the hills. There was age in the fossil shells sticking out of the Calvert Cliffs and the giant sharks teeth I found there.
The world got old that summer and the universe got big, very big, awesome and exciting.
Sooner or later the kids will get to actually see the evidence.
When they discover that the actual evidence refutes everything you have ever told them that can be checked, how can they possibly believe what you said about things like God that cannot be checked?
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin and worsn grammr

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Wounded King
Member (Idle past 119 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 9 of 15 (579659)
09-05-2010 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by archaeologist
09-05-2010 1:04 AM


interesting comment. if the texas board of education is the christian champion then why did ICR have such a rough go of things?
Because the State board of education which decides on the textbooks consists of 15 elected representatives while the Texas Higher Education board, which decides on the licensing of higher education institute's courses, is a totally different body which is appointed by the governor.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by archaeologist, posted 09-05-2010 1:04 AM archaeologist has replied

Replies to this message:
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archaeologist
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 15 (579812)
09-06-2010 6:09 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Nij
09-05-2010 6:20 AM


Evolutionists and secular universities" teach facts
i wish you people would get your stories straight. first you all say that science is not about truth, so if it i snot about truth then it is not about facts thus evolutionists and universities do not teach facts but lies.
Then they tell you what we think explains those facts best,
that is not true either. you all teach the alternatives that you want to be true and avoid the truth because you do not want to follow the Bible nor accept its ways.
creation doesn't have to be 'accepted' as secular science because secular science is not designed for the truth and acceptance/non-acceptance by secular science doesn't change the fact that creation as found in Gen. 1 is true.
it is not a matter of what can be proved or what can be studied but a matter of right and wrong and if you choose wrong then you miss out.
if i was th elawyer on that case or those cases the creationists would have won.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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archaeologist
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 15 (579813)
09-06-2010 6:12 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Wounded King
09-05-2010 12:31 PM


okay thank you. though one must applaud the texas state board of education for eliminating much of evolution from its textbooks.
anyways i am goign to take a break from this board for awhile. i do not like discussing things with dishonest people.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Nij
Member (Idle past 4976 days)
Posts: 239
From: New Zealand
Joined: 08-20-2010


Message 12 of 15 (579815)
09-06-2010 6:37 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by archaeologist
09-06-2010 6:09 AM


Lol. Strange that your continued rant about "secular science" is still entirely wrong about it.
Science is not about truth. It's about trying to explain the universe in terms of the universe, without resorting to "Goddidit!"
that is not true either.
Yes, as a matter of fact it is true. Evolution, BBT/inflation, tectonic theory, relativity.. these are currently our best explanations of the universe in terms of the universe (and often in terms of mathematics, because that's the best way to do it). Hence they are taught as sciences. Note the conspicuous absence of any form whatsoever of creationism. Because of it not being science, you know?


I know it really is because it's not science, but your conclusion, despite built from the wrong premise, is nonetheless correct: creationism does not have to be accepted as part of science.
So, why do you keep pushing for it to be taught as science, if you say it clearly doesn't have to be? Love how you keep contradicting yourself. Consistency was never a creationist strong point though, I guess.
you all teach the alternatives that you want to be true and avoid the truth because you do not want to follow the Bible nor accept its ways.
Funny how we don't actually want any specific alternative to be true. We just want the alternative that we use to be as true as possible. Which evolution is, and evolution is. And of course, creationism is not, and creationism is not.
It's also funny how "avoiding the truth" is not equivalent to "denying the Bible" and "accepting evolution" is not equivalent to "not accepting the Bible's ways". Except in your fancy fantasyland, that is, but we all already know you're a crackpot.
if i was th elawyer on that case or those cases the creationists would have won
Yeah, 'cos you're just as good a lawyer as you are an archaeologist. And that being, not at all.
Amazing how so many creationists have double qualifications: they're able to know nothing at all about multiple fields of study at once!
The lawyer wasn't the problem. The law was. You know, that whole establishment clause thing? The one that prevents a public school from teaching one religion above or below another?
Not that I expect you to know anyway. You know, you being neither a lawyer nor a (real) archaeologist.
Hence pushing to have creationism taught in public schools is unconstitutional and thereby eliminated whenever its ugly deformed head pops up. And hence why a bunch of morons isn't allowed to call their branch of moronity "science".

This message is a reply to:
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Admin
Director
Posts: 13082
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.1


(2)
Message 13 of 15 (579824)
09-06-2010 8:02 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by archaeologist
09-06-2010 6:12 AM


Archaeologist Suspended One Week
archaeologist writes:
anyways i am goign to take a break from this board for awhile. i do not like discussing things with dishonest people.
Rule 10 of the Forum Guidelines states:
  1. Always treat other members with respect. Argue the position, not the person. Avoid abusive, harassing and invasive behavior. Avoid needling, hectoring and goading tactics.
Since you've been advised several times about this type of behavior I'm suspending you for one week.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 34064
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 14 of 15 (579837)
09-06-2010 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by archaeologist
09-06-2010 6:09 AM


archaeologist writes:
i wish you people would get your stories straight. first you all say that science is not about truth, so if it i snot about truth then it is not about facts thus evolutionists and universities do not teach facts but lies.
Let me try once again to help you.
Facts are not true or false beyond the test of whether or not the evidence supports their existence.
Facts are things that can be shown to exist to a very, very high degree of confidence.
Science always holds conclusions as tentative. If newer facts are found that refutes a conclusion, even a very strongly held conclusion, Science says that the newer facts must take precedent.
archaeologist writes:
that is not true either. you all teach the alternatives that you want to be true and avoid the truth because you do not want to follow the Bible nor accept its ways.
Again, why do you make the Bible such a pitiful worthless thing? Do you really think that a book filled with contradictions and where there is not even one universal list of what books should be included is really the best your little god can provide?
Open your eyes. Look around you. See the real evidence that GOD left us.
archaeologist writes:
it is not a matter of what can be proved or what can be studied but a matter of right and wrong and if you choose wrong then you miss out.
if i was th elawyer on that case or those cases the creationists would have won.
No, if you were the lawyer the cases would have been much shorter though. So far you as lawyer for your position have not presented a single witness or piece of evidence. That is generally not a good way to win cases.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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evolutionfacts
Junior Member (Idle past 2603 days)
Posts: 12
From: Long Beach, CA
Joined: 08-22-2010


Message 15 of 15 (808005)
05-08-2017 1:37 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by archaeologist
09-05-2010 1:04 AM


"interesting comment. if the texas board of education is the christian champion then why did ICR have such a rough go of things?"
Possibly because "Christian" and "Creationist" are not synonymous?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by archaeologist, posted 09-05-2010 1:04 AM archaeologist has not replied

  
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