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Author Topic:   Atheism Cannot Rationally Explain Morals.
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 512 of 1006 (804707)
04-12-2017 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 497 by Dredge
04-11-2017 7:37 PM


Dredge writes:
The morals of societies are formed from the morality of individuals.
Not exactly. Society's morals are influenced by history and culture as well as by current opinions. The "right and wrong" that we learn can change as we are exposed to different ideas and different cultures. The idea that it's wrong to discriminate on the basis of race, gender, sexual orientation, etc. is much more recent than the idea that 's wrong to kill or steal.
So it isn't "whatever you want it to be". It's whatever has been assimilated by your culture.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 497 by Dredge, posted 04-11-2017 7:37 PM Dredge has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 513 of 1006 (804708)
04-12-2017 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 492 by Phat
04-11-2017 2:33 PM


Re: Whatever
Phat writes:
Can anyone think of morals that society intrinsically knows to be true yet routinely ignores or rejects?
Monogamy seems to be an obvious example. We all "know" it's "wrong" to cheat on your spouse, boyfriend/girlfriend, etc. but cheating is very common.
Phat writes:
In order for morals to be rational, they must be something we actually do.
I don't know about hat. I'd say that rationality is about what we think; it has little to do with what we do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 492 by Phat, posted 04-11-2017 2:33 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 514 of 1006 (804709)
04-12-2017 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 511 by Davidjay
04-12-2017 11:07 AM


Re: Good post Dredge
Davidjay writes:
They have to admit according to evolutionary theory that their life is meaningless and an accident of mutations.
On the contrary, we define our own meaning instead of having "meaning" spoon-fed to us by some alien overlord. As I define meaning, not only are my children more important than bugs but they're more important than you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 511 by Davidjay, posted 04-12-2017 11:07 AM Davidjay has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 515 by Faith, posted 04-12-2017 3:50 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 518 of 1006 (804716)
04-12-2017 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 515 by Faith
04-12-2017 3:50 PM


Re: Good post Dredge
Faith writes:
But the point, of course, is that you have no objective or reliable basis for your valuation of human life or whatever you value.
On the contrary, the collective morality of the place where I actually live is far more reliable than the opinion of some spook (who may or may not even exist). As Thomas Paine said: people can manage their own affairs better than some goober an ocean away.
Faith writes:
We may feel humanity is important, but the ToE is a strong influence we all encounter that says we aren't important at all.
On the contrary, evolution suggests that our genes are important, so our children have to be protected until they can pass them on. That's the foundation of all morality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 515 by Faith, posted 04-12-2017 3:50 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 554 by Dredge, posted 04-13-2017 7:55 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 553 of 1006 (804839)
04-13-2017 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 538 by Dredge
04-13-2017 1:55 AM


Re: Whatever
Dredge writes:
Abortion is murder.
So, do you advocate capital punishment for women who have abortions?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 538 by Dredge, posted 04-13-2017 1:55 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 561 by Dredge, posted 04-13-2017 8:14 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 605 of 1006 (805076)
04-15-2017 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 554 by Dredge
04-13-2017 7:55 PM


Re: Good post Dredge
Dredge writes:
Evolution is blind, mindless, unconscious and uncaring. It doesn't care if you and your children exist or don't exist. Do you think human beings need to exist?
They think they do. That's all that matters. Whether the human will to survive is based on some woo-woo "meaning" imparted by some alien overlord or whether it's just a blind, mindless, unconscious and uncaring "desire" to pass on our genes, it's all that matters.
The fact that we want to survive and we want our children to survive is all that propels morality. Even kowtowing to an alien overlord is based on the same will to survive.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 554 by Dredge, posted 04-13-2017 7:55 PM Dredge has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 607 of 1006 (805078)
04-15-2017 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 561 by Dredge
04-13-2017 8:14 PM


Re: Whatever
Dredge writes:
Do I advocate capital punishment for women who have abortions? No.
What about imprisonment then? If abortion is murder, a woman who obtains an abortion should be treated as a murderer, shouldn't she?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 561 by Dredge, posted 04-13-2017 8:14 PM Dredge has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 608 of 1006 (805081)
04-15-2017 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 576 by Faith
04-14-2017 12:07 AM


Re: Good post Dredge
Faith writes:
... it is INFERRED from (evolutionary) science....
Inferences are often wrong, particularly when the people making the inferences don't know anything about the subject. Almost every post you make is testimony to that.
For example, a "primitive" tribe might infer that a man with a flashlight was a god.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 576 by Faith, posted 04-14-2017 12:07 AM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 730 of 1006 (806186)
04-23-2017 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 725 by Dredge
04-23-2017 1:24 AM


Dredge writes:
So the series of mindless accidents that resulted in human life has no more significance or meaning than a rock falling down a cliff. Do mindless accidents have meaning?
If that mindless falling rock lands on your house, doesn't that have significance or meaning to you? Do you really need an alien overlord to tell you whether it does or not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 725 by Dredge, posted 04-23-2017 1:24 AM Dredge has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 785 of 1006 (806752)
04-27-2017 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 769 by Davidjay
04-26-2017 9:57 PM


Re: Evolutionists can not explain morals
Davidjay writes:
Evolutionists can not explain altruistic behaviour, as evolution states it is the survival of the fittest competition....
Evolution is about survival of the species, not the individual. Any behaviour that advances the survival of other individuals in our species advances the survival of the species as a whole.
There is also the obvious advantage that even if we do die as individuals, there are other members of our species, whom we have helped to survive, to help our offspring to survive.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 786 by Coyote, posted 04-27-2017 12:24 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 787 by Chiroptera, posted 04-27-2017 12:49 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 834 by Dredge, posted 05-01-2017 4:12 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 801 of 1006 (806938)
04-29-2017 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 796 by Faith
04-28-2017 9:30 PM


Re: Evolutionists can not explain morals
Faith writes:
No, God ordained punishment for the guilty.
Everybody is guilty.
Faith writes:
And in case you think this contradicts the command to love your enemy, the command is to individuals about personal enemies.
The command to love your enemy underlines the fact that there is no difference between friend and enemy. Everybody is your friend. Everybody is your enemy, including (especially) yourself.
Faith writes:
We are never to give aid to haters of God or his people.
On the contrary, we are to give aid especially to the ones we perceive as enemies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 796 by Faith, posted 04-28-2017 9:30 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 802 by jar, posted 04-29-2017 12:16 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 842 of 1006 (807204)
05-01-2017 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 834 by Dredge
05-01-2017 4:12 AM


Re: Evolutionists can not explain morals
Dredge writes:
Evolution is not about anything; it is blind, purposeless, mindless and unconscious.
Non sequitur. Weather is blind, purposeless, mindless and unconscious but it's still about movement of air.
Dredge writes:
... survival is a result of sheer, meaningless luck.
The beginning of a life may be a result of sheer, meaningless luck but the end of a life is the result of selection. It isn't just luck that the slow zebra is the one that the lion catches.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 834 by Dredge, posted 05-01-2017 4:12 AM Dredge has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(5)
Message 881 of 1006 (807525)
05-03-2017 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 861 by Dredge
05-03-2017 12:29 AM


Re: Evolutionists can not explain morals
Dredge writes:
It's possible that I'm even better at philosophy than I am at science!
It's almost a certainty.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 861 by Dredge, posted 05-03-2017 12:29 AM Dredge has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 915 of 1006 (807777)
05-05-2017 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 901 by Dredge
05-05-2017 6:39 AM


Re: Evolutionists can not explain morals
Dredge writes:
Your answer offers nothing in the way of a solution as to how one can prove a certain moral is correct.
You have the wrong idea about "correctness". There is no absolutely correct or incorrect handed down to us by some alien overlord. What is "correct" in a given situation is what works in that situation. Since situations vary from place to place and from time to time, it's only natural that morals also vary.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 901 by Dredge, posted 05-05-2017 6:39 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 943 by Dredge, posted 05-08-2017 3:29 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 958 of 1006 (808077)
05-08-2017 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 943 by Dredge
05-08-2017 3:29 AM


Re: Evolutionists can not explain morals
Dredge writes:
Evidently, morality can be whatever you want it to be; you just make it up as you go along.
Do you think it was absolutely wrong for Hitler to kill millions of Jews and absolutely right for the Allies to kill millions of Germans?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 943 by Dredge, posted 05-08-2017 3:29 AM Dredge has not replied

  
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