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Author Topic:   Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Taq
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Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 136 of 1311 (808091)
05-08-2017 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Dredge
05-08-2017 3:06 AM


Re: Darwin
Dredge writes:
And Albert Einstein was a patents clerk, so what could he have possibly have known about physics?
He would have learned lots of physics while he attained his degree in physics.

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 Message 122 by Dredge, posted 05-08-2017 3:06 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Taq
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Posts: 9970
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 137 of 1311 (808093)
05-08-2017 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Dredge
05-08-2017 3:21 AM


Re: Science and theories
Dredge writes:
What are you talking about? I merely asked how Darwinism has made facts more useful. My definition of "useful" is useful to applied science.
I already showed how the theory of evolution is useful in posts 4, 9, 12, 13, and 17. Perhaps you could respond to those.

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CRR
Member (Idle past 2242 days)
Posts: 579
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 138 of 1311 (808176)
05-08-2017 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Taq
05-08-2017 12:45 PM


The Hyperbole of Dobzhansky
For the purposes of this thread it is not necessary to show that nothing in biology makes sense in the light of evolution. The question is if "nothing in biology makes sense EXCEPT in the light of evolution."
While there are some who take an extreme view one way or the other I think it has become clear during the discussion that quite a lot in biology makes sense without evolution. Dobzhansky was just using hyperbole for a catchy title for his article; and there's nothing wrong with that.
Do you like my message title? I admit it's not as good as Dobzhansky's.

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CRR
Member (Idle past 2242 days)
Posts: 579
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 139 of 1311 (808177)
05-08-2017 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Taq
05-08-2017 12:36 PM


The Entropy = Information Mistake
I guess you didn't read the article. Here's a link to another article written for the less technically minded like me. Fingerprints of an Intelligent Programmer: The Entropy = Information Mistake | Evolution News
"Bottom line: As the Shannon entropy required for functionality increases, the amount of functional information required to satisfy functionality decreasesquite the opposite of what some scientists mistakenly assert.
...
Entropy does not produce functional information, at least not any statistically significant level of functional information."

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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 140 of 1311 (808179)
05-08-2017 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by CRR
05-08-2017 8:25 PM


Re: The Entropy = Information Mistake
You realize that link you posted is from the Discovery Institute, right?
That is the organization that is responsible for the Wedge Document. Here is a link that describes that document:
What is the “Wedge Document”? | The Sensuous Curmudgeon
and here is the full Wedge Document:
The Wedge Document | National Center for Science Education
Here are some quotes from the document:
quote:
Design theory promises to reverse the stifling dominance of the materialist worldview, and to replace it with a science consonant with Christian and theistic convictions.
To replace materialistic explanations with the theistic understanding that nature and human beings are created by God.
To see intelligent design theory as the dominant perspective in science.
  —Wedge Document
In other words, they are advocating that science as we know it be destroyed and replaced by science in the furtherance of a particular religious belief.
I can see why you might post a link from that organization, but I wouldn't trust them if they said the sun rises in the east--I'd want to see it for myself.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 141 of 1311 (808182)
05-08-2017 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Dredge
05-08-2017 3:02 AM


Really? In that case, please answer me this: Why is a scientifically useless theory - namely, Darwin's theory of Common Descent - dogmatically preached at virtually every level of education in the industrialised world?
People are taught about common descent because it appears to be true.
Another question: Why are people who oppose a scientifically useless theory - namely, Darwin's theory of Common Descent - persecuted and ridiculed in academic and intellectual circles for doing so?
Creationists are ridiculed because they are ridiculous.
---
Substitute any other fact for common descent and the thing becomes obvious. Is it scientifically useful to know who won the Civil War? No. But it is taught --- or, as you would say, "dogmatically preached" --- at every educational level, in the US at least. And someone who went around claiming the South won would be ridiculed in academic and intellectual circles, and indeed in wider circles than those.

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CRR
Member (Idle past 2242 days)
Posts: 579
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 142 of 1311 (808189)
05-09-2017 1:24 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by Coyote
05-08-2017 8:42 PM


Re: Wedge Document
The Wedge Document: So What?
I see the NSCE propaganda continues to equate ID with Creationism. As a YEC I can tell you that the people at the Discovery Institute are not Young Earth Creationists. Since they've had a running disagreement with Biologos they're not theistic evolutionists either.
I think you're just using an ad hominem to avoid the scientific issues raised.
Edited by CRR, : added

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Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 143 of 1311 (808190)
05-09-2017 1:41 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by bluegenes
05-06-2017 2:43 AM


Re: 2 - 0. Own goals.
bluegenes writes:
Darwin's theory is certainly useful n engineering.
Really. Engineering technology is always evolving, but to credit any of it to Darwin's theory is nonsense.
Edited by Admin, : Fix quote dBCode.

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Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 144 of 1311 (808191)
05-09-2017 1:46 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Dr Adequate
05-06-2017 9:35 AM


I should be more specific:
"Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution."
If "evolution" means simply, heritable changes in a population (a la Dr Adequate's definition), then yes, the above statement has a lot going for it.
If "evolution" means Darwinism, the above statement has a lot going for it - iff the theory of Common Descent is left out of "Darwinism".
If "evolution" means the Theory of Common Descent, the above statement has nothing at all going for it if "biology" means applied biology.
If "evolution" means Darwinism, the above statement has a lot going for it if "biology"includes atheist bed-time stories about whales evolving from deers, etc.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 145 of 1311 (808192)
05-09-2017 1:59 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by CRR
05-07-2017 7:32 PM


Re: Speedy Species Surprise
It seems to me that what Darwin did, in effect, was take the principals of artificial selection (that animal and plant breeders had been employing for millennia) and apply them to creatures "in the wild" ... thereby coming up with the theory of natural selection to explain heritable changes in a natural ("wild") population. From there he waved the magic wand of wild and uninhibited extrapolation until he arrived at Common Descent.
But if natural selection is just a "feral" version of artificial selection, then I'm wondering what 150 years of Darwinism has actually added to the knowledge of animal and plant breeders.

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Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 146 of 1311 (808193)
05-09-2017 2:08 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Percy
05-06-2017 8:47 AM


Re: What mechanism stops evolutionary change?
Evolutionists and creationists argue about what was possible or not after the Flood, but both seem to be forgetting one important factor: The God who created all things isn't confined to natural laws and can perform miracles. After the Flood, the Creator could have decided to "hurry things along" by miraculously creating further variations within the kinds of creatures that came off the ark. God could have easily facilitated "accelerated evolution" - no problem at all.
In which case, creation science doesn't have to stick strictly to the Bible script, as God could have performed all sorts of miracles in his creation that aren't mentioned at all in the Scriptures.
For example, if there was one kind of giraffe on the ark and there are four species today, so what? God wanted four species to exist, so after the Flood he waved his magic wand and four species eventually emerged from one kind. If he wanted twenty species of giraffe, then twenty would have eventually emerged from one kind. What's the problem?

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Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 147 of 1311 (808194)
05-09-2017 2:12 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Coyote
05-06-2017 9:36 AM


Re: Evolution is a cult?
Coyote writes:
I doubt if Darwin was mentioned more than once or twice
Maybe so, but I bet there was a lot of gratuitous use of the word "evolution", which are allusions to Darwinism.

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Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 148 of 1311 (808195)
05-09-2017 2:15 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by Davidjay
05-06-2017 10:44 AM


Re: Definitely Evolution is a cult?
What about the Sun, Dj? It's a freakin' nuclear fusion reactor and atheists believe it formed as a result of blind, dumb chance! LOL.

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Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 149 of 1311 (808196)
05-09-2017 2:18 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Coyote
05-06-2017 10:26 AM


Re: Definitely Evolution is a cult?
Coyote writes:
I've written a number of non-fiction books
I'm going to write a non-fiction book called "Darwin's Contributions to Applied Science". It will be the shortest book in history.

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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 150 of 1311 (808198)
05-09-2017 3:06 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by Dredge
05-09-2017 2:08 AM


Re: What mechanism stops evolutionary change?
Dredge writes:
After the Flood, the Creator could have decided to "hurry things along" by miraculously creating further variations within the kinds of creatures that came off the ark. God could have easily facilitated "accelerated evolution" - no problem at all.
Well finally.
It's always puzzled me why creationist don't simply apply magic all the way through the process. Why spend so much time attempting to explain the factual impossibilities of the bible when you can just say 'goddidit'? At that point we'd all shut up - there's nothing we can say about magic.
Why do you guys do it?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

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