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Author Topic:   Atheism Cannot Rationally Explain Morals.
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6950
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 817 of 1006 (806986)
04-30-2017 3:08 AM
Reply to: Message 811 by Dredge
04-30-2017 12:50 AM


Re: You really need to drop that straw man by now
Dredge writes:

I'm not interested in your straw man.

But you are VERY interested in avoiding answering a difficult issue for you. You said

there are plenty of non-religious folks who oppose same-sex marriage. Your opinion on the matter is not more valid than theirs and there is no objecitve way of deciding which opinion is correct.

And I said

There are plenty of murderers, thieves and rapists too. As a society we don't allow them to continue with their activities because we think there is a moral difference between those that harm others and those that don't......The laws of modern, democratic, secular societies are based on the prevention of harm to its citizens. We decided what behaviours we prohibit based on whether those activities interfere with the well-being of others. With that as the standard we don't need to look to the supernatural.

There is no harm caused by two people loving each other so there is no need for laws that would harm them.

There is no straw man here. The concepts of harm and well-being are absolutely central to our moral systems. These are independent of any religious ideas which, whilst they often contain useful moral ideas - most notably 'do as you would be done by', they also contain the ludicrous and obviously harmful.

The fact that they contain these harmful ideas demonstrates that morality is not god given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 811 by Dredge, posted 04-30-2017 12:50 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 850 by Dredge, posted 05-02-2017 2:23 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6950
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 833 of 1006 (807137)
05-01-2017 3:16 AM
Reply to: Message 830 by Dredge
05-01-2017 1:17 AM


Re: Evolutionists can not explain morals
Faith writes:

You are of the opinion that genocide is immoral, but how can you prove that genocide is immoral?

We start by considering whether the arbitrary murder of innocents is a harmful thing to do to people or not. Having noticed that it is, we make a law prohibiting it. Then we take an accused individual to a court of law where a jury decides whether he is guilty beyond reasonable doubt or not.

How do you do it?

If you can't prove that genocide is immoral, then it's just your opinion verses the opinion of this God.

Which god? Which opinion? How do we decide which fabricated god to use for our morality?

But just taking this alleged Christian God guy, when he says something that we think is objectively wrong because it causes harm, like keeping slaves, stoning adulterers, killing homosexuals, wiping out tribes....etc etc....incomplete but very long list here:
https://www.quora.com/...larly-immoral-acts-in-Bible-stories

What are we supposed to make of it? It's ok because this guy is supposed to be the source of all moral knowledge? He seems evil to me, so I'm terribly confused. Is genocide ok by you when your god does it?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 830 by Dredge, posted 05-01-2017 1:17 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 851 by Dredge, posted 05-02-2017 2:32 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6950
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 837 of 1006 (807145)
05-01-2017 4:28 AM
Reply to: Message 834 by Dredge
05-01-2017 4:12 AM


Re: Evolutionists can not explain morals
Dredge writes:

Evolution is not about anything; it is blind, purposeless, mindless and unconscious. Life is a result of sheer, meaningless luck and survival is a result of sheer, meaningless luck. Evolution doesn't care if human beings exist or not. Evolution doesn't care if no life at all exists.

Ok so now that you understand that evolution isn't a person or a god or any ither conscious agent that has opinions and feelings, but is instead merely a description of how we've observed that life works, your only problem is how to come to terms with it.

At the moment you're making a spectacularly bad job of it - hence all this irrationality.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 834 by Dredge, posted 05-01-2017 4:12 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 861 by Dredge, posted 05-03-2017 12:29 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6950
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 838 of 1006 (807147)
05-01-2017 6:28 AM
Reply to: Message 835 by Dredge
05-01-2017 4:19 AM


Re: Let's start over.
Dredge writes:

If I were an atheist, I would consider life meaningless, morality meaningless and beliefs meaningless and actions meaningless and emotions meaningless.

Now that is a truly rediculous thing to say. Really.

I know of no atheists that think that way - none. Have you ever met an atheist? Most of Scandanavia - and northern Europe generally - is atheist and has the highest happiness rating of anywhere on earth.

quote:
Norway has jumped from 4th place in 2016 to 1st place this year, followed by Denmark, Iceland and Switzerland in a tightly packed bunch. All of the top four countries rank highly on all the main factors found to support happiness: caring, freedom, generosity, honesty, health, income and good governance.

http://worldhappiness.report/...017/03/HR17-ESv2_updated.pdf

Do you think those hundreds of millions of people fee that their lives have no meaning? Absurd. Accept the evidence in front of your eyes - you're deceiving yourself.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 835 by Dredge, posted 05-01-2017 4:19 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 866 by Dredge, posted 05-03-2017 1:04 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6950
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 854 of 1006 (807297)
05-02-2017 3:31 AM
Reply to: Message 851 by Dredge
05-02-2017 2:32 AM


Re: Evolutionists can not explain morals
Dredge writes:

In other words, you can't prove that your opinion on same-sex marriage is more valid than someone else's opinion that opposes it.

No I can't, and neither can you; morality is not mathematics.
But I do believe that harming people is wrong which apparently you do not. So discriminating against homosexulas because of the way your god made them is wrong.

Morality is a code of conduct that is developmental - it evolves as our society develops. What Christians thought moral in the middle ages is not what they would think is moral today. There are very few absolutes even amongst same sect believers. Can you point me to a set of non-contradictory absolute morals?

You are equating laws with morality, but they're not necessarily the same thing.

Laws develop from society's veiw of right and wrong and deal with codes of behaviour concerned with harm. Immoral laws tend to be made by dictatorships or countries governed by religious zealots who's concern is other than the well-being of the people.

Can you prove that harming another human being is immoral?

Yes. When I hurt them they scream and insist I stop. Do you think it moral for me to continue?

quote:
Is genocide ok by you when you god does it?
Yes. I accept all my God's judgements as righteous and just.

Mass murder is ok by you. Pause to let that sink in.

This is why religious zealots are extremely dangerous and need to be controlled. You can't be trusted to behave morally if your deluded belief system tells you so.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 851 by Dredge, posted 05-02-2017 2:32 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 864 by Dredge, posted 05-03-2017 1:00 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6950
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 871 of 1006 (807420)
05-03-2017 2:05 AM
Reply to: Message 864 by Dredge
05-03-2017 1:00 AM


Re: Evolutionists can not explain morals
Dredge writes:

You keep using harm as a major part of your argument, but harm is actually not a good indicator of morality. For example, a dentist will harm you when he pulls your tooth out - then he harms you again when he gives you the bill. A professional boxer will get in a ring and bash someone in order to get money to provide food and shelter for his family. A soldier will shoot an opponent dead. A judge will harm you when he takes your licence away for six months for drink-driving. A policeman will harm you when he hands you a $300 ticket for speeding.

Then their are cases likes Adolf Hitler, who considered his moral duty to kill millions of Jews; or the Khmer Rouge, who tortured and murdered millions of their own citizens for the sake of equality.

Do I really have to explin the concepts of least harm, aggregate well-being, psychopathy and even sport and dentistry to you? Really? This is juvenile stuff.

Are the police aware that you hurt people until they scream and insist you stop?

It seems that you have given up the argument.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 864 by Dredge, posted 05-03-2017 1:00 AM Dredge has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6950
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 872 of 1006 (807423)
05-03-2017 2:17 AM
Reply to: Message 866 by Dredge
05-03-2017 1:04 AM


Re: Let's start over.
Dredge writes:

"Let me summarise my views on what modern evolutionary biology tells us loud and clear - and these are basically Darwin's views. There are no gods, no purposes, no goal-directed forces of any kind. There is no life after death ... There is no ultimate foundation for ethics, no ultimate meaning in life" - William Provine, (a late) atheist and evolutionary scientist.

Can you point to anything anywhere in the ToE that saying anything at all about life after death or even hints towards it? Anything whatsoever about morality or the meaning of life? Anything?

You are aware that billions of people are religious but also accept the ToE? And that there are other billions that are not religious that also accept the ToE and that find meaning in life and behave morally.

The few that argue petulently and irrationally against it are a very small and odd bunch indeed.

Oh, now that sounds very scientific! I hope the folks who came up with those ratings used an approved happiness meter (aka a Happinometer).

Yes it is a scientific measurment. I'd take you through the methodology if I thought you would try to understand it but you simply handwave away evidence you don't like preferring instead to believe childish nonsense.

Is it that hard to accept that atheists can have meaning in their lives and behave morally?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 866 by Dredge, posted 05-03-2017 1:04 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 891 by Dredge, posted 05-04-2017 3:48 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6950
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 898 of 1006 (807658)
05-04-2017 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 891 by Dredge
05-04-2017 3:48 AM


Re: Let's start over.
duplicate

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 891 by Dredge, posted 05-04-2017 3:48 AM Dredge has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6950
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 899 of 1006 (807660)
05-04-2017 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 891 by Dredge
05-04-2017 3:48 AM


Re: Let's start over.
Dredge writes:

Evolution is the greatest engine of atheism ever invented" - William Provine (late evolutionary scientist and now a reformed atheist)

This is irrelevant, you don't seem to have understood the question - I try again

Can you point to anything anywhere in the ToE that says anything at all about life after death or morality or the meaning of life?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 891 by Dredge, posted 05-04-2017 3:48 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 906 by Dredge, posted 05-05-2017 7:34 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6950
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 922 of 1006 (807817)
05-05-2017 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 906 by Dredge
05-05-2017 7:34 AM


Re: Let's start over.
Dredge writes:

I know what you're getting at, but you can't separate reality into separate compartments.

I suspect you don't mean reality.

Darwinism is an idea that has undeniable ontological implications. This is obvioius from the contrasting reactions of clerics and athesits to Darwin's book after it was published.

As did the discoveries of geology and astronomy - old earth and heliocentricity. As did medicine and the scientific method generally. Combined, they proved the errors of primitive, superstitious thinking.

That is not the fault of science, none of these discoveries have anything whatsoever to do with religion - they just happen to demonstrate that religion is wrong.

And that is reality. No amount of complaining can change reality.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 906 by Dredge, posted 05-05-2017 7:34 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 939 by Dredge, posted 05-08-2017 2:50 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6950
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 945 of 1006 (808025)
05-08-2017 3:51 AM
Reply to: Message 939 by Dredge
05-08-2017 2:50 AM


Re: Let's start over.
quote:
a small detail you seemed to have overlooked - you can't equate empirical evidence with the theory of Common Descent.

Palaeontology is an empirical science using empirical evidence. Fossils.
Molecular genetics is an empirical science using empirical evidence. DNA

And why we're about it, you never got round to explaining why there is any similarity at all in the DNA of other apes and man.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 939 by Dredge, posted 05-08-2017 2:50 AM Dredge has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6950
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 949 of 1006 (808041)
05-08-2017 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 943 by Dredge
05-08-2017 3:29 AM


Re: Evolutionists can not explain morals
quote:
Evidently, morality can be whatever you want it to be; you just make it up as you go along.

Not really, some norms of behaviour are pretty standard wherever and whenever; in-tribe murder for example.

But I'd be interested to hear what your objective morality actually is. Do you have a list?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 943 by Dredge, posted 05-08-2017 3:29 AM Dredge has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6950
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 966 of 1006 (808205)
05-09-2017 4:31 AM
Reply to: Message 964 by Dredge
05-09-2017 3:38 AM


Re: Quibbles the quibbler
Dredge writes:

Also consider the Khmer Rouge, who believed murdering 5 million Cambodians would offer a direct benefit to society. Then there's ISIS, who thinking slaughtering infidels offers a direct benefit to society.

Individuals and groups frequently attempt to devise their own ideas about how lives should be lived. Your religion is one of these groupings. Morally good ideas are often hi-jacked by morally corrupt people, Christianity has seen this several times, communism is another example. Hitler may or may not have been a 'true' beliving Christian, but he used some of the of Christianity and corrupted them to justify his actions. Pol Pot was just a psychopath.

The point is though, that these malignancies have eventually been overturned by more beneficial ways of living together. Immoral societies harm people and eventually collapse.

By picking out a few moral aberrations perpetrated by genocidal mass murderers, you ignore the general trends of increasing moral behavious across the history of our civilisation.

So, show us your objective morality.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 964 by Dredge, posted 05-09-2017 3:38 AM Dredge has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6950
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


(2)
Message 973 of 1006 (808320)
05-10-2017 4:09 AM
Reply to: Message 972 by Dredge
05-10-2017 3:51 AM


Re: Creationist summary? vs rationalist summary
Dredge writes:

You seem to have repeated yourself. Can you elaborate, please? Why is survival of the group important?

Generally, being dead is considered to be bad for things.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 972 by Dredge, posted 05-10-2017 3:51 AM Dredge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 974 by Dredge, posted 05-10-2017 4:52 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6950
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


(3)
Message 976 of 1006 (808323)
05-10-2017 5:16 AM
Reply to: Message 974 by Dredge
05-10-2017 4:52 AM


Re: Creationist summary? vs rationalist summary
Dredge writes:

Do human beings need to survive, individually or collectively?

Well I definitely feel the need not to be dead. I just asked my daughter and she does too. Not only that, we both decided that it would be bad if the other was dead.

That's a sample of two. How about you? Do you feel it would be ok to be dead? How about your mum? Maybe ask a few others - see if you can form a bit of a consensus.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 974 by Dredge, posted 05-10-2017 4:52 AM Dredge has not yet responded

  
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