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Author Topic:   Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Taq
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Posts: 10021
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 132 of 1311 (808083)
05-08-2017 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Faith
05-06-2017 1:49 PM


Re: What mechanism stops evolutionary change?
Faith writes:
Running out of genetic diversity/ allelic options as new populations develop from old, especially as they near the point of "speciation" where their allelic options are severely reduced.
Genetic diversity and allelic options are replenished by mutations that occur in every individual in every generation.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

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Taq
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Posts: 10021
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 133 of 1311 (808087)
05-08-2017 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by CRR
05-07-2017 7:32 PM


Re: Speedy Species Surprise
CRR writes:
However what we don't see, or at least I don't know of an example, is mutations adding significant amounts of new genetic information.
All you have to do is compare the genome of two species. For example, you could look at the 40 million mutations that differ between the human and chimp genomes. Among those are the mutations that are responsible for the species specific features of those two lineages. If those don't qualify as mutations that add genetic information, then evolution doesn't have to produce genetic information as you define it.
What we see is consistent with the Biblical YEC view.
How is the nested hierarchy consistent with the YEC view?
How is the distribution and divergence of ERVs consistent with the YEC view?
How is the divergence of introns and exons consistent with the YEC view?
How is the existence of hominid transitional fossils consistent with the YEC view?
How is the existence of reptile to mammal transitional fossils consistent with the YEC view?
How is the relationship between parent-daughter ratios of isotopes in rocks and the fossils found below them consistent with YEC?
These are just a few off the top of my head, and all these questions can be answered by the theory of evolution. I have yet to see a YEC even try to approach these questions.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10021
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 134 of 1311 (808088)
05-08-2017 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by CRR
05-07-2017 9:49 PM


Re: Speedy Species Surprise
CRR writes:
This is an area of ongoing research but progress is being made. See for example
"Measuring the functional sequence complexity of proteins", Page Not Found .
Tom Schneider has already done this work, and he has shown that evolutionary mechanisms do increase genetic information as it relates to Shannon's definition:
quote:
How do genetic systems gain information by evolutionary processes? Answering this question precisely requires a robust, quantitative measure of information. Fortunately, 50 years ago Claude Shannon defined information as a decrease in the uncertainty of a receiver. For molecular systems, uncertainty is closely related to entropy and hence has clear connections to the Second Law of Thermodynamics. These aspects of information theory have allowed the development of a straightforward and practical method of measuring information in genetic control systems. Here this method is used to observe information gain in the binding sites for an artificial ‘protein’ in a computer simulation of evolution. The simulation begins with zero information and, as in naturally occurring genetic systems, the information measured in the fully evolved binding sites is close to that needed to locate the sites in the genome. The transition is rapid, demonstrating that information gain can occur by punctuated equilibrium.
Evolution of biological information - PMC

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 Message 118 by CRR, posted 05-07-2017 9:49 PM CRR has replied

Replies to this message:
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Taq
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Posts: 10021
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 135 of 1311 (808090)
05-08-2017 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Dredge
05-08-2017 3:02 AM


Dredge writes:
It just so happens that the parts they find objectionable and reject are the parts that are useless to science in any practical sense. That's my point - by rejecting Darwinism, science is none the poorer.
Then how does the biology teacher explain why life falls into a nested hierarchy?
How does the biology teacher explain why everything with fur also has three middle ear bones?
How does the biology teacher explain why we find reptile-mammal transitional fossils but no bird-mammal transitional fossils?
I think you are speaking on topics you have no knowledge of.
Why is a scientifically useless theory - namely, Darwin's theory of Common Descent - dogmatically preached at virtually every level of education in the industrialised world?
Why do you avoid all of my posts, especially those on the first few pages of this thread? I demonstrated in multiple posts just how useful the theory is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Dredge, posted 05-08-2017 3:02 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 10021
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 136 of 1311 (808091)
05-08-2017 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Dredge
05-08-2017 3:06 AM


Re: Darwin
Dredge writes:
And Albert Einstein was a patents clerk, so what could he have possibly have known about physics?
He would have learned lots of physics while he attained his degree in physics.

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Taq
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Posts: 10021
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 137 of 1311 (808093)
05-08-2017 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Dredge
05-08-2017 3:21 AM


Re: Science and theories
Dredge writes:
What are you talking about? I merely asked how Darwinism has made facts more useful. My definition of "useful" is useful to applied science.
I already showed how the theory of evolution is useful in posts 4, 9, 12, 13, and 17. Perhaps you could respond to those.

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 Message 138 by CRR, posted 05-08-2017 8:15 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10021
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 158 of 1311 (808231)
05-09-2017 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by CRR
05-08-2017 8:15 PM


Re: The Hyperbole of Dobzhansky
CRR writes:
While there are some who take an extreme view one way or the other I think it has become clear during the discussion that quite a lot in biology makes sense without evolution. Dobzhansky was just using hyperbole for a catchy title for his article; and there's nothing wrong with that.
Quite a lot of biology only makes sense in the light of evolution, and I have yet to see any other explanation for the history of life that makes the same sense. Would you agree?

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10021
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 159 of 1311 (808233)
05-09-2017 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by CRR
05-09-2017 1:24 AM


Re: Wedge Document
CRR writes:
The Wedge Document: So What?
I see the NSCE propaganda continues to equate ID with Creationism. As a YEC I can tell you that the people at the Discovery Institute are not Young Earth Creationists. Since they've had a running disagreement with Biologos they're not theistic evolutionists either.
I think you're just using an ad hominem to avoid the scientific issues raised.
The Wedge Document isn't propaganda. It is a memo written by the Discovery Institute for the Discovery Institute. They say themselves that ID is not science and that it is religiously motivated.

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Taq
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Posts: 10021
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 160 of 1311 (808237)
05-09-2017 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Dredge
05-09-2017 1:46 AM


Dredge writes:
I should be more specific:
"Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution."
If "evolution" means simply, heritable changes in a population (a la Dr Adequate's definition), then yes, the above statement has a lot going for it.
If "evolution" means Darwinism, the above statement has a lot going for it - iff the theory of Common Descent is left out of "Darwinism".
If "evolution" means the Theory of Common Descent, the above statement has nothing at all going for it if "biology" means applied biology.
If "evolution" means Darwinism, the above statement has a lot going for it if "biology" includes atheist bed-time stories about whales evolving from deers, etc.
We use the theory of evolution to determine if species share a common ancestor. The nested hierarchy only makes sense in the light of common ancestry and evolution. The pattern of orthologous ERVs and their divergence only makes sense in the light of common ancestry and evolution. The correlation of molecular and morphological phylogenies only makes sense in the light of common ancestry and evolution.
What we see in biology only makes sense if species share a common ancestry AND if the divergence between them, both at the physical and DNA level, occurred through the mechanisms of evolution.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10021
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 161 of 1311 (808238)
05-09-2017 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by Dredge
05-09-2017 1:59 AM


Re: Speedy Species Surprise
Dredge writes:
It seems to me that what Darwin did, in effect, was take the principals of artificial selection (that animal and plant breeders had been employing for millennia) and apply them to creatures "in the wild" ... thereby coming up with the theory of natural selection to explain heritable changes in a natural ("wild") population. From there he waved the magic wand of wild and uninhibited extrapolation until he arrived at Common Descent.
Darwin arrived at common descent because of shared features between species, biogeography, and vestigial features, to name a few. Common descent was independent of natural selection.

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Taq
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Posts: 10021
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(4)
Message 165 of 1311 (808269)
05-09-2017 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Tangle
05-09-2017 4:14 AM


Re: What mechanism stops evolutionary change?
Tangle writes:
But again, why try to create impossible scenarios for how the flood story worked in real life when you can simply invoke magic?
Because they know that religiously based explanations are inferior to scientific explanations. This is why they try to make evolution look like a religion so that it shares the same flaw as creationism does.

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 Message 153 by Tangle, posted 05-09-2017 4:14 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by Tangle, posted 05-09-2017 3:45 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10021
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 167 of 1311 (808286)
05-09-2017 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by Tangle
05-09-2017 3:45 PM


Re: What mechanism stops evolutionary change?
Tangle writes:
There must be something in that, and it's quite a modern thing. The idea that belief needs to be proven objectively would be alien to an 18th century Christian. It smacks of a real deep centred insecurity.
The natural world was a much more mysterious place in the 1700's. When modern science found natural and mindless processes for much of nature it left little room for God in some peoples' eyes. There was even those who didn't like Newton because he proposed an indifferent, impersonal, and mechanistic process for the movement of planets. When you fall into the trap of believing in a God of the Gaps, that God disappears when knowledge fills those gaps.

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Taq
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Posts: 10021
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(3)
Message 174 of 1311 (808345)
05-10-2017 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by Dredge
05-10-2017 3:33 AM


Dredge writes:
You obviously don't know the difference between a theory and a practical use for a theory.
You asked how the theory of evolution is useful in the field of biology. I did just that.
Since you are so enamored with definitions, let's look at the definition for biology:
"the science of life or living matter in all its forms and phenomena, especially with reference to origin, growth, reproduction, structure, and behavior. "
Biology Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com
"Biology is a natural science concerned with the study of life and living organisms, including their structure, function, growth, evolution, distribution, identification and taxonomy."
Biology - Wikipedia
Biology includes the history of species, the origin of species, and how species changed over time. The theory of evolution is very useful for figuring those things out.
All you've done in your previous posts (4 9 12 13 17) is offer evolutionary explanations for certain observations in nature. And this is your idea of "useful"? All you're doing is theorising! Whether your theorising is correct or not isn't the point; the point is it's just paper-science, and it's no more useful than toilet paper.
The entire purpose of science is to offer testable explanations for groups of facts. Producing theories is what science is all about.
Here is a simple example of what you're doing: the observation is made that giraffes have long necks; an explanation for the long neck is then proffered - a longer neck confers a survival advantage which natural selection favours; longer necks are a heritable trait so therefore eventally longer necks dominate in the population. Conclusion: Long necks can only be explained by evolution. How is this useful? It's just talk.
It's a testable explanation for a group of facts which is the entire purpose of science. It is also useful to biology because it explains the origin of giraffes. One of the purposes of biology is to explain why there are giraffes, and this explanation fills that purpose.
I suspect that like most students of biology, you've been indoctrinated by the cult of Darwinism to consider theoretical arguments for evolution to be proof-positive that Darwinism is "useful" and therefore a "fact".
I have been taught that theories supported by mountains of evidence are solid theories. Is this not correct?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Dredge, posted 05-10-2017 3:33 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Dredge, posted 05-11-2017 3:04 AM Taq has replied
 Message 177 by CRR, posted 05-11-2017 7:29 AM Taq has replied
 Message 188 by Dredge, posted 05-12-2017 5:03 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10021
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 184 of 1311 (808521)
05-11-2017 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by CRR
05-11-2017 7:29 AM


CRR writes:
Many people say that evolution is fact and that there is a mountain of evidence to prove it.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts do not go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's, but apples did not suspend themselves in mid-air, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from apelike ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other, yet to be discovered."--Stephen Jay Gould, "Evolution as Fact and Theory"
http://wise.fau.edu/...es/knowing/gould_fact-and-theory.html
Should Christians just cave in and admit that Genesis is a myth?
Perhaps Christians should learn that myths were a common way of communicating truths in the ancient world.
This episode [Creation magazine Live] examines and refutes key evolution evidences such as:
I challenge you to pick one of those topics and start a thread on it. I can guarantee that none of them will stand up to scrutiny.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10021
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 185 of 1311 (808522)
05-11-2017 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by Dredge
05-11-2017 3:04 AM


Dredge writes:
"Evolutionary biology has been severely hampered by a speculative style of argument that records anatomy and ecology and then tries to construct historical or adaptive explanations for why this bone looked like that or why this creature lived here. These speculations have been charitably called "scenarios"; they are often more contemptuously, and rightly, labeled "stories". Scientists know that these tales are stories; unfortunately, they are presented in the professional literature, where they are taken too seriously and literally." - Stephen Jay Gould.
(Richard Ellis, Aquagenesis: The Origin and Evolution of LIfe in the Sea. Penguin Books, 2001, p.204)
That doesn't address what I wrote. I fully agree that biologists shouldn't speculate as to specific reasons why specific adaptations arose. That doesn't change the evidence that supports evolution and common ancestry.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Dredge, posted 05-11-2017 3:04 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
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