Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 64 (9038 total)
227 online now:
dwise1, xongsmith (2 members, 225 visitors)
Newest Member: Barry Deaborough
Post Volume: Total: 885,690 Year: 3,336/14,102 Month: 277/724 Week: 35/91 Day: 3/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Y.E.C. Model: Was there rapid evolution and speciation post flood?
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16861
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 91 of 518 (808597)
05-11-2017 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Faith
05-11-2017 3:13 PM


Re: The YEC model requires beneficial mutations and strong positive selection.
quote:

We don't need new alleles. All new phenotypes are the product of new combinations of the existing alleles.

Faith, the alleles exist. Whether they are "needed" or not. The question is how do you explain where the additional alleles come from. You say that is is not mutation. Then what is it ?

(And I would suggest that simplistic Mendelian genetics without regard to what the genes really do is hardly a good way to judge what is "needed" - especially when we are talking about the immune system)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Faith, posted 05-11-2017 3:13 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Faith, posted 05-11-2017 3:33 PM PaulK has responded

  
Taq
Member (Idle past 1 days)
Posts: 8482
Joined: 03-06-2009


Message 92 of 518 (808598)
05-11-2017 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Faith
05-11-2017 3:17 PM


Re: The YEC model requires beneficial mutations and strong positive selection.
Faith writes:

Absolute screaming nonsense. Nothing I've said implies such nonsense.

"You haven't grasped the fact that a gene with two alleles in combination with others genes with two alleles is all it takes to produce all the diversity of life we see."--Faith

That is exactly what you implied. You are implying that a mixture of human alleles can produce every other living species.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Faith, posted 05-11-2017 3:17 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Faith, posted 05-11-2017 3:25 PM Taq has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 345 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 93 of 518 (808599)
05-11-2017 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Taq
05-11-2017 3:18 PM


Re: The YEC model requires beneficial mutations and strong positive selection.
Again I have NO idea where such nonsense comes from. None. There's no point in repeating it, it simply makes no sense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Taq, posted 05-11-2017 3:18 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Taq, posted 05-11-2017 3:24 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member (Idle past 1 days)
Posts: 8482
Joined: 03-06-2009


Message 94 of 518 (808600)
05-11-2017 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Faith
05-11-2017 3:21 PM


Re: The YEC model requires beneficial mutations and strong positive selection.
Faith writes:

Again I have NO idea where such nonsense comes from.

You have said that you can't alter the human genome without causing disease, and no alterations will produce new functions. Isn't this correct?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Faith, posted 05-11-2017 3:21 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 345 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 95 of 518 (808601)
05-11-2017 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Taq
05-11-2017 3:21 PM


Re: The YEC model requires beneficial mutations and strong positive selection.
Oh good grief.

All "the diversity of life?" Aaaaargh. I mean that all creatures would vary within their own Species due to all the possible combinations of one or more genes with two alleles per gene in their own genomes, just as humans do. Is that clearer? What is still confusing in this?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Taq, posted 05-11-2017 3:21 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Taq, posted 05-11-2017 3:27 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member (Idle past 1 days)
Posts: 8482
Joined: 03-06-2009


Message 96 of 518 (808602)
05-11-2017 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Faith
05-11-2017 3:25 PM


Re: The YEC model requires beneficial mutations and strong positive selection.
Faith writes:

Aaaaargh. I mean that all creatures would vary within their own Species due to all the possible combinations of one or more genes with two alleles per gene in their own genomes, just as humans do. Is that clearer? What is still confusing in this?

What is confusing is that you keep saying that almost any alteration to a human gene will cause disease and will not change its function. This means other species must have nearly the same sequence as the genes found in the human genome, and those genes have to have the same function because there is no other possible function for those genes.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Faith, posted 05-11-2017 3:25 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 1378 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 97 of 518 (808603)
05-11-2017 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Faith
05-11-2017 3:17 PM


Re: The YEC model requires beneficial mutations and strong positive selection.
Faith writes:

I gave an answer to that paper, that's all I know.

ABE: You claim different functions for all those alleles, but haven't shown it. As I suggested they could all be neutral mutations that don't change the function but continue to do what the original allele did.

Variety itself makes the immune system stronger. But that's not the point. They cannot be there in such high percentages in a young earth scenario unless they are positively selected.

And they are there. So, what's your conclusion? Positive selection, or older earth, older life?

It has to be one or the other.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Faith, posted 05-11-2017 3:17 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Faith, posted 05-11-2017 3:38 PM bluegenes has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 345 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 98 of 518 (808604)
05-11-2017 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by PaulK
05-11-2017 3:20 PM


What DO all those alleles actually do?
PK writes:

Faith, the alleles exist. Whether they are "needed" or not. The question is how do you explain where the additional alleles come from. You say that is is not mutation. Then what is it ?

Where did I said it's not mutations?: Of course it's mutations. Is the problem that I don't regard mutations as viable alleles then?

The "additional alleles" are mutations which are not really viable alleles even though most of them may not change the function of the allele they displaced so the original function is not disturbed. For the time being.

(And I would suggest that simplistic Mendelian genetics without regard to what the genes really do is hardly a good way to judge what is "needed" - especially when we are talking about the immune system)

the problem is nobody has SAID what all those alleles DO. It's been assumed that they each do something just enough different and beneficial to add to the strenght of the immune system, according to that article Bluegenes posted but there was nothing in that article to show that this is anything but an inference from the theory that mutations produce viable alleles. If they are all "neutral" mutations the allele would continue to do what it always did in the cell -- that it does anything different is not shown, it is merely assumed, as far as I can tell from that article.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by PaulK, posted 05-11-2017 3:20 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by PaulK, posted 05-11-2017 3:47 PM Faith has responded
 Message 101 by Taq, posted 05-11-2017 3:48 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 345 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 99 of 518 (808605)
05-11-2017 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by bluegenes
05-11-2017 3:28 PM


Re: The YEC model requires beneficial mutations and strong positive selection.
Variety itself makes the immune system stronger. But that's not the point. They cannot be there in such high percentages in a young earth scenario unless they are positively selected.

And they are there. So, what's your conclusion? Positive selection, or older earth, older life?

It has to be one or the other.

Mutations are random accidents of replication, yes? Most of them are neutral as to function, right:? That is, the mutated allele continues to do what the original allele did, right?: That being the case why should there be any selection involved at all? The immune system from what you've said appears to be particularly prone to mutations. Why should there be any other reason than its proneness to frequent random accidents of replication to explain the rate at which they occur?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by bluegenes, posted 05-11-2017 3:28 PM bluegenes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Taq, posted 05-11-2017 3:52 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 104 by bluegenes, posted 05-11-2017 3:58 PM Faith has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 16861
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 100 of 518 (808606)
05-11-2017 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Faith
05-11-2017 3:33 PM


Re: What DO all those alleles actually do?
quote:

Where did I said it's not mutations?: Of course it's mutations. Is the problem that I don't regard mutations as viable alleles then?

When you said:


But you think we NEED mutations to get new alleles and I don't, so how many there are on a gene doesn't tell me much; all I can say is the fewer the better.

it certainly seemed to indicate that you felt that new alleles could appear without mutation. And in fact that is the sensible reading in context.

quote:

The "additional alleles" are mutations which are not really viable alleles even though most of them may not change the function of the allele they displaced so the original function is not disturbed

That is just confused and almost certainly wrong - and makes it very difficult to explain why we actually find so many alleles if Adam and Eve are literally true and lived only 6000 years ago.

quote:

the problem is nobody has SAID what all those alleles DO

The first thing to understand is that genes are not simple switches that turn traits on and off. They are a representation of a protein sequence. In the immune system they are going to code for proteins that can help us resist diseases. By having a wide variety of defences it is less likely that a single disease could wipe us all out.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Faith, posted 05-11-2017 3:33 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Faith, posted 05-11-2017 4:21 PM PaulK has responded

  
Taq
Member (Idle past 1 days)
Posts: 8482
Joined: 03-06-2009


Message 101 of 518 (808607)
05-11-2017 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Faith
05-11-2017 3:33 PM


Re: What DO all those alleles actually do?
Faith writes:

Is the problem that I don't regard mutations as viable alleles then?

How do you determine if an allele is "viable"?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Faith, posted 05-11-2017 3:33 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Faith, posted 05-11-2017 3:57 PM Taq has responded

  
Taq
Member (Idle past 1 days)
Posts: 8482
Joined: 03-06-2009


Message 102 of 518 (808608)
05-11-2017 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Faith
05-11-2017 3:38 PM


Re: The YEC model requires beneficial mutations and strong positive selection.
Faith writes:

Mutations are random accidents of replication, yes? Most of them are neutral as to function, right:?

That's because the vast majority of the genome is junk DNA.

That is, the mutated allele continues to do what the original allele did, right?:

Are all of the cat alleles functioning the same as the human alleles?

Or do they have different functions because they have different DNA sequences?

If a different sequence can produce a different and beneficial function, then why do you say that mutations altering DNA sequence can not produce new and beneficial functions?

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Faith, posted 05-11-2017 3:38 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 345 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 103 of 518 (808609)
05-11-2017 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Taq
05-11-2017 3:48 PM


Re: What DO all those alleles actually do?
Yes I just realized that's a word that could cause problems. I mean something like "original" or "bona fide" but something clearer is still needed. I mean a NONmutated allele. A neutral mutation may function the same as the original allele did but being mutated it's --shall I say-- "damaged?" I could say "altered" perhaps. Any allele whose sequence has been altered by a mutation or mutations, even if its function is not altered, is what I mean by NOT viable. Not a good word though, I see. I'll try to find ways of saying it better.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Taq, posted 05-11-2017 3:48 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Tangle, posted 05-11-2017 4:02 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 106 by Taq, posted 05-11-2017 4:18 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 1378 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 104 of 518 (808610)
05-11-2017 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Faith
05-11-2017 3:38 PM


Re: The YEC model requires beneficial mutations and strong positive selection.
Faith writes:

Mutations are random accidents of replication, yes? Most of them are neutral as to function, right:? That is, the mutated allele continues to do what the original allele did, right?: That being the case why should there be any selection involved at all? The immune system from what you've said appears to be particularly prone to mutations.

No. It's no more prone than anywhere else.

Faith writes:

Why should there be any other reason for that than its proneness to frequent random accidents of replication to explain the rate at which they occur?

It isn't prone to these, and the alleles that are present as a measurable percentage are certainly highly functional, otherwise they would be selected out quickly.

They face positive selection because two different ones working in tandem is better than an identical pair.

There's no explanation for their survival other than positive selection. They are like soldiers with slightly different arms.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Faith, posted 05-11-2017 3:38 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Faith, posted 05-11-2017 4:26 PM bluegenes has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8152
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 105 of 518 (808612)
05-11-2017 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Faith
05-11-2017 3:57 PM


Re: What DO all those alleles actually do?
Try

Archetype [(ahr-ki-teyep)] An original model after which other similar things are patterned


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Faith, posted 05-11-2017 3:57 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2021