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Author
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Topic: Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
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Tanypteryx
Member Posts: 4407 From: Oregon, USA Joined: 08-27-2006 Member Rating: 5.5
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Message 271 of 1311 (809747)
05-20-2017 6:51 PM
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Reply to: Message 267 by Dredge
05-20-2017 6:16 PM
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Re: Useful applications of evolutionary theory and processes
Nice try, but all you're describing is microevolution. Nice try, evolution IS microevolution. That's it.
A creationist biologist could potentially tackle any task applied biology throws at him because applied biology operates only at the level of microevolution. Except that there is no such thing as a creationist biologist. And there is no such thing as applied biology. Those are terms made up by religious nutjobs who want jobs as scientists but who don't want to learn any science.
For all intents and purposes, macroevolution exists only in the La La Land of theorectical biology; it's an irrelevance to real-world biology. Actually, macroevolution is just more microevolution. It's too complicated for creationists to understand. You guys always get it wrong. That's why in my whole career in science, in biology, in entomology I have never met a creationist biologist. They are lost trying to find the employment ads for "applied science." Magic poofing is what we find in La La Land. Not much use is real world science. Edited by Tanypteryx, : No reason given.
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 267 by Dredge, posted 05-20-2017 6:16 PM | | Dredge has not replied |
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: 07-20-2006
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Message 272 of 1311 (809748)
05-20-2017 6:52 PM
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Reply to: Message 270 by Dredge
05-20-2017 6:28 PM
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sigh ... Here we go again - another Darwinist mistaking theory for reality. Your kind are so hopelessly brainwashed that you can't even tell the difference between a theory and a practical use for a theory. This is Scientismistic delusion. Bizarre stuff. If you have no rebuttal, be advised that this pathetic incoherent little temper tantrum is no substitute for one.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 270 by Dredge, posted 05-20-2017 6:28 PM | | Dredge has not replied |
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1423 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 273 of 1311 (809750)
05-20-2017 7:11 PM
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Reply to: Message 267 by Dredge
05-20-2017 6:16 PM
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Re: Useful applications of evolutionary theory and processes
Nice try, but all you're describing is microevolution. A creationist biologist could potentially tackle any task applied biology throws at him because applied biology operates only at the level of microevolution. ... Correct, ALL evolution occurs through microevolution.
(1) The process of evolution involves changes in the composition of hereditary traits, and changes to the frequency of their distributions within breeding populations from generation to generation, in response to ecological challenges and opportunities for growth, development, survival and reproductive success in changing or different habitats. This is sometimes called microevolution, however this is the process through which all species evolve and all evolution occurs at the breeding population level.
... For all intents and purposes, macroevolution exists only in the La La Land of theorectical biology; ... Can you define what you think "macroevolution" is? In my experience no creationists get this right. Hint: see Anagenesis Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : .
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 267 by Dredge, posted 05-20-2017 6:16 PM | | Dredge has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 328 by Dredge, posted 05-22-2017 8:47 PM | | RAZD has replied |
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CRR
Member (Idle past 2261 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: 10-19-2016
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Re: your ass.
You must have pulled this one right out of your ass. Perhaps you mean "your arse". Dredge and I are Australians. Over here an ass is close relative of the horse; but an arse is a body orifice for excreting solid waste.
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CRR
Member (Idle past 2261 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: 10-19-2016
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Message 275 of 1311 (809768)
05-20-2017 10:54 PM
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Reply to: Message 269 by Coyote
05-20-2017 6:27 PM
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Re: Useful applications of evolutionary theory and processes
Visualize walking from SF to NY, then to London, UK. Microevolution allows you to explore the limits of the available gene pool; but beyond that you need macroevolution. Microevolution + Time ≠ Macroevolution.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 269 by Coyote, posted 05-20-2017 6:27 PM | | Coyote has replied |
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2124 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: 01-12-2008
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Message 276 of 1311 (809769)
05-20-2017 11:02 PM
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Reply to: Message 275 by CRR
05-20-2017 10:54 PM
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Re: Useful applications of evolutionary theory and processes
Microevolution allows you to explore the limits of the available gene pool; but beyond that you need macroevolution. Microevolution + Time ≠ Macroevolution. But you are forgetting (or ignoring) the effects of mutation and selection. And both the genetic and fossil records show changes over large stretches of time that qualify as macroevolution, although they were the result of many small changes (small steps).
Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity. Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 275 by CRR, posted 05-20-2017 10:54 PM | | CRR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 278 by CRR, posted 05-20-2017 11:20 PM | | Coyote has replied |
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Tanypteryx
Member Posts: 4407 From: Oregon, USA Joined: 08-27-2006 Member Rating: 5.5
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Message 277 of 1311 (809770)
05-20-2017 11:07 PM
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Reply to: Message 274 by CRR
05-20-2017 10:49 PM
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Re: your ass.
You must have pulled this one right out of your ass.
Perhaps you mean "your arse". Dredge and I are Australians. Over here an ass is close relative of the horse; but an arse is a body orifice for excreting solid waste. Good to know.... 
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 274 by CRR, posted 05-20-2017 10:49 PM | | CRR has not replied |
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CRR
Member (Idle past 2261 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: 10-19-2016
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Message 278 of 1311 (809771)
05-20-2017 11:20 PM
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Reply to: Message 276 by Coyote
05-20-2017 11:02 PM
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Re: Useful applications of evolutionary theory and processes
No I'm not. If mutation adds statistically significant amounts of functional information then it is macroevolution. Microevolution does not add statistically significant amounts of functional information.
I have a ridiculously long signature full of quotes too! God never said that the journey would be easy, but He did say that the arrival would be worthwhile. Max Lucado Worry does not empty tomorrow of its sorrows; it empties today of its strength. Corrie Ten Boom I’ve read the last page of the Bible. It’s all going to turn out all right. Billy Graham If God called us to a task, He will then qualify us for the job. Jack Hyles When you understand that life is a test, you realize that nothing is insignificant in your life. Rick Warren Success is on the same road as failure; success is just a little further down the road. Jack Hyles God loves each of us as if there were only one of us. Augustine God’s work done in God’s way will never lack God’s supplies. Hudson Taylor God has a purpose behind every problem. He uses circumstances to develop our character. In fact, he depends more on circumstances to make us like Jesus than he depends on our reading the Bible. Rick Warren Outside of Christ, I am weak; in Christ, I am strong. Watchmen Nee We have a God who delights in impossibilities. Billy Sunday Christ literally walked in our shoes. Tim Keller One touch of Christ is worth a lifetime of struggling. A.B. Simpson We are all faced with a series of great opportunities brilliantly disguised as impossible situations. Chuck Swindoll Let God’s promises shine on your problems. Corrie Ten Boom You are the only Bible some unbelievers will ever read. John MacArthur God grades on the Cross not on the curve. Adrian Rogers When we lose one blessing, another is often most unexpectedly given in its place. C.S. Lewis Our greatest fear should not be of failure but of succeeding at things in life that don’t really matter. Francis Chan He who lays up treasures on earth spends his life backing away from his treasures. To him, death is loss. He who lays up treasures in heaven looks forward to eternity; he’s moving daily toward his treasures. To him, death is gain. Randy Alcorn He said Loveas I have loved you. We cannot love too much. Amy Carmichael God does not give us everything we want, but He does fulfill His promises, leading us along the best and straightest paths to Himself. Dietrich Bonhoeffer We may speak about a place where there are no tears, no death, no fear, no night; but those are just the benefits of heaven. The beauty of heaven is seeing God. Max Lucado The ultimate measure of a man [or women] is not where he [she] stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he [she] stands at times of challenge and controversy. Martin Luther King Jr. I’m not afraid of the devil. The devil can handle me — he’s got judo I never heard of. But he can’t handle the One to whom I’m joined; he can’t handle the One to whom I’m united; he can’t handle the One whose nature dwells in my nature. A.W. Tozer
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 276 by Coyote, posted 05-20-2017 11:02 PM | | Coyote has replied |
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NoNukes
Inactive Member
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Re: Useful applications of evolutionary theory and processes
rather than just saying it was magic and the reason reality doesn't fit her fantasy is god wants to mess with us. Ham and the AIG folks have terminology for folks who do this. They call the search and effort to reconcile miracles to mere ordinary occurrences that they can point to scientific evidence for as demonstrations of a "lack of faith'. I think there is something to that position. Example describing that Larson DVD we spent so much time discussing in another thread: https://answersingenesis.org/...of-the-star-of-bethlehem-dvd
quote:
This DVD attempts to give some scientific answer for why the Bible must be true. The Bible never makes such claims for itself, for it stands as propositional truth, and we reject it at our peril. The DVD attempts to bolster peoples’ faith by showing that there is a natural explanation for the star of Bethlehem, as if we doubted that it actually happened.
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 262 by Tanypteryx, posted 05-19-2017 12:52 PM | | Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied |
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2124 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: 01-12-2008
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Message 280 of 1311 (809773)
05-20-2017 11:30 PM
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Reply to: Message 278 by CRR
05-20-2017 11:20 PM
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Re: Useful applications of evolutionary theory and processes
If mutation adds statistically significant amounts of functional information then it is macroevolution. Microevolution does not add statistically significant amounts of functional information. But you have to consider the time periods involved. YECs tend to underestimate just how long a few million years can be, and the changes that can occur during that time. If you have a few thousand microevolutionary steps over a couple of million years, and if you compare the first and last critters the differences could certainly be called macroevolution--though we don't tend to use that term as much as creationists do.
Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity. Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 278 by CRR, posted 05-20-2017 11:20 PM | | CRR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 281 by CRR, posted 05-20-2017 11:46 PM | | Coyote has not replied |
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CRR
Member (Idle past 2261 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: 10-19-2016
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Message 281 of 1311 (809775)
05-20-2017 11:46 PM
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Reply to: Message 280 by Coyote
05-20-2017 11:30 PM
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Micro/Macro-evolution
Consider this quote Population geneticists use a different definition of evolution: a change in allele frequencies among generations. This meaning is quite different to the original [and] is roughly equivalent to microevolution*. Unfortunately [this] often results in an overemphasis on changes in allele frequencies and an underemphasis (or no consideration of) the origin of the different alleles. Endler, John A., Natural Selection in the Wild, Princeton University Press, New Jersey, USA, 1986. p7 * emphasis added You can get any amount of change in allele frequencies among generations and still end up with the same (or less) alleles that you started with; in which case it does not result in macroevolution. Part of the problem is that there are no universally agreed definitions of what constitutes micro and macroevolution. Depending on definitions we could both be right, or wrong.
I have a ridiculously long signature full of quotes too! God never said that the journey would be easy, but He did say that the arrival would be worthwhile. Max Lucado Worry does not empty tomorrow of its sorrows; it empties today of its strength. Corrie Ten Boom I’ve read the last page of the Bible. It’s all going to turn out all right. Billy Graham If God called us to a task, He will then qualify us for the job. Jack Hyles When you understand that life is a test, you realize that nothing is insignificant in your life. Rick Warren Success is on the same road as failure; success is just a little further down the road. Jack Hyles God loves each of us as if there were only one of us. Augustine God’s work done in God’s way will never lack God’s supplies. Hudson Taylor God has a purpose behind every problem. He uses circumstances to develop our character. In fact, he depends more on circumstances to make us like Jesus than he depends on our reading the Bible. Rick Warren Outside of Christ, I am weak; in Christ, I am strong. Watchmen Nee We have a God who delights in impossibilities. Billy Sunday Christ literally walked in our shoes. Tim Keller One touch of Christ is worth a lifetime of struggling. A.B. Simpson We are all faced with a series of great opportunities brilliantly disguised as impossible situations. Chuck Swindoll Let God’s promises shine on your problems. Corrie Ten Boom You are the only Bible some unbelievers will ever read. John MacArthur God grades on the Cross not on the curve. Adrian Rogers When we lose one blessing, another is often most unexpectedly given in its place. C.S. Lewis Our greatest fear should not be of failure but of succeeding at things in life that don’t really matter. Francis Chan He who lays up treasures on earth spends his life backing away from his treasures. To him, death is loss. He who lays up treasures in heaven looks forward to eternity; he’s moving daily toward his treasures. To him, death is gain. Randy Alcorn He said Loveas I have loved you. We cannot love too much. Amy Carmichael God does not give us everything we want, but He does fulfill His promises, leading us along the best and straightest paths to Himself. Dietrich Bonhoeffer We may speak about a place where there are no tears, no death, no fear, no night; but those are just the benefits of heaven. The beauty of heaven is seeing God. Max Lucado The ultimate measure of a man [or women] is not where he [she] stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he [she] stands at times of challenge and controversy. Martin Luther King Jr. I’m not afraid of the devil. The devil can handle me — he’s got judo I never heard of. But he can’t handle the One to whom I’m joined; he can’t handle the One to whom I’m united; he can’t handle the One whose nature dwells in my nature. A.W. Tozer
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 280 by Coyote, posted 05-20-2017 11:30 PM | | Coyote has not replied |
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Tanypteryx
Member Posts: 4407 From: Oregon, USA Joined: 08-27-2006 Member Rating: 5.5
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Message 282 of 1311 (809776)
05-21-2017 12:13 AM
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Reply to: Message 275 by CRR
05-20-2017 10:54 PM
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Re: Useful applications of evolutionary theory and processes
CRR writes: Visualize walking from SF to NY, then to London, UK. Microevolution allows you to explore the limits of the available gene pool; but beyond that you need macroevolution. Microevolution + Time ≠ Macroevolution. Ok, so now we know exactly what you think as far as microevolution and macroevolution.
quote:
Microevolution + Time ≠ Macroevolution.
The way reality works though is those of us who work in science and evolutionary biology have observed and documented that Microevolution + Microevolution + Microevolution X n + time = Evolution, plus when we observe populations of organisms or fossils at intervals separated by time then we can see that evolution has happened and also that it has sometimes resulted in new species. Now we have decided that we would refer to the latter observation as Macroevolution. Since we are the people working in this field or studying the field we get to make the decision what we call this part of our discoveries. You creationists can go on deluding yourselves that Microevolution + Time ≠ Macroevolution, but we know that you are incorrect and we will continue to point out to you that your delusion is not an accurate description of Evolution.
What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 275 by CRR, posted 05-20-2017 10:54 PM | | CRR has not replied |
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CRR
Member (Idle past 2261 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: 10-19-2016
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Message 283 of 1311 (809782)
05-21-2017 3:02 AM
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Micro/Macro-evolution definitions
The thread to talk about this is How do you define the word evolution? You can read my posts Message 47, Message 87.
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NoNukes
Inactive Member
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Message 284 of 1311 (809783)
05-21-2017 3:37 AM
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Reply to: Message 256 by Faith
05-18-2017 6:27 PM
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Re: Useful applications of evolutionary theory and processes
The problem is you guys have bought into a really nutty theory about those things and can't see the true situation for what it is. There are entire threads devoted to why the "strata and the fossils" as actually found differ from what is expected from a Great Flood. Your response in those discussions has been to label things actually observed as illusion until somebody manages to explain them according to the Flood. It would be hard to find a better example of a person suspending their critical thinking.
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 256 by Faith, posted 05-18-2017 6:27 PM | | Faith has not replied |
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1423 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 285 of 1311 (809788)
05-21-2017 6:48 AM
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Reply to: Message 275 by CRR
05-20-2017 10:54 PM
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Re: Useful applications of evolutionary theory and processes
... Microevolution allows you to explore the limits of the available gene pool; but beyond that you need macroevolution. Microevolution + Time ≠ Macroevolution. Can you define "macroevolution" so we will be talking about the same thing? Creationist literature usually (99%+) gets it wrong, so you may be misinformed. Hint: see Anagenesis Enjoy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 275 by CRR, posted 05-20-2017 10:54 PM | | CRR has not replied |
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