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Author Topic:   Atheists are more intelligent than Religious people
ringo
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Posts: 17662
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 20 of 60 (810368)
05-28-2017 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Tangle
05-28-2017 12:13 AM


Tangle writes:

It is what it is - a series of studies that find the same thing.


But they're all based on the same premise - that intelligence can be measured in some meaningful way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Tangle, posted 05-28-2017 12:13 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Tangle, posted 05-28-2017 7:06 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17662
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 23 of 60 (810432)
05-29-2017 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Tangle
05-28-2017 7:06 PM


Tangle writes:

They might be controversial but they measure intelligence in the way we define it.


Well, one of the ways that "we" define intelligence is, "the ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills." But the ability to acquire knowledge depends very much on one's culture and environment. How would you compare the intelligence of an illiterate tribesman in Ethiopia with the intelligence of a person in suburban USA?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Tangle, posted 05-28-2017 7:06 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Tangle, posted 05-29-2017 7:04 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17662
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 27 of 60 (810520)
05-30-2017 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Tangle
05-29-2017 7:04 PM


Tangle writes:

ringo writes:

How would you compare the intelligence of an illiterate tribesman in Ethiopia with the intelligence of a person in suburban USA?


I wouldn't. And neither did the studies we're talking about.

So what difference does it make how many studies agree if they're all comparing apples with apples?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Tangle, posted 05-29-2017 7:04 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Tangle, posted 05-30-2017 7:47 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17662
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 30 of 60 (810639)
05-31-2017 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Tangle
05-30-2017 7:47 PM


Tangle writes:

They compare intelligence - measured in various ways - with religiosity and find a negative correlation.


That doesn't answer the question. If all of the "various ways" assume that they can measure intelligence, why wouldn't they all agree?

What intelligence tests actually measure is the ability to take tests. That may be useful in choosing candidates for employment or further education, but I don't see how it's useful in determining whether one group is "smarter" than another.

Who is more intelligent, an artist or an academic? The academic is likely to do better on tests because that's what his background is. Similarly, a white guy from the suburbs is likely to do better than a black guy from the inner city because that's what his background is.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Tangle, posted 05-30-2017 7:47 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Davidjay, posted 05-31-2017 12:10 PM ringo has responded
 Message 34 by Tangle, posted 05-31-2017 8:17 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17662
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 32 of 60 (810648)
05-31-2017 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Davidjay
05-31-2017 12:10 PM


Davidjay writes:

Awesome ringo, you composed more than a one liner...


You should try it some time. Instead of just blathering the same nonsense in every post, try to actually respond ntelligently.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Davidjay, posted 05-31-2017 12:10 PM Davidjay has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17662
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 36 of 60 (810752)
06-01-2017 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Tangle
05-31-2017 8:17 PM


Tangle writes:

These tests are used across the Western world to obtain entry into higher education and jobs...


That's what I said.

Tangle writes:

... you can throw them away as useless if you wish, but they appear to have value in practice.


I'm not throwing anything away. I have acknowledged their usefulness. You quoted me . What I'm saying is that their usefulness has limits. The fact that a shovel is useful for digging holes doesn't mean you can stand on it to touch the sky.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Tangle, posted 05-31-2017 8:17 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Tangle, posted 06-01-2017 7:39 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17662
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 38 of 60 (810870)
06-02-2017 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Tangle
06-01-2017 7:39 PM


Tangle writes:

But to make any reasonable point out of that generalisation you have to show why in these studies the use of intelligence tests is inappropriate or misleading.


On the contrary, the onus is on you to show that the generalization IS appropriate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Tangle, posted 06-01-2017 7:39 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Tangle, posted 06-02-2017 6:07 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17662
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 41 of 60 (810967)
06-03-2017 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Tangle
06-02-2017 6:07 PM


Tangle writes:

IQ tests and their equivalents have been used successfully for around 100 years as an effective tool for measuring relative intelligence.


IQ tests and their equivalents have been used successfully for around 100 years as an effective tool for measuring the ability to take IQ tests and their equivalents.

Tangle writes:

They have some known biases caused by cultural differences. You seem to be making the claim that the studies are fatally flawed because of this.


No. I'm asking you to show that it's reasonable to extrapolate beyond the ability to take the tests.

If applicant A scores 10 points higher on an IQ test than applicant B, does that mean applicant A will be a better employee? Maybe, if the job involves taking IQ test but otherwise, why would it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Tangle, posted 06-02-2017 6:07 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-03-2017 4:00 PM ringo has responded
 Message 43 by Tangle, posted 06-03-2017 4:25 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17662
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 48 of 60 (811048)
06-04-2017 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Thugpreacha
06-03-2017 4:00 PM


Phat writes:

Religiously (belief minded) people are not as enamored of evidence and critical thought as are practical verifiable evidential people.


That's a copout. Religiously-minded people can still be critical thinkers and can use evidence when there is evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-03-2017 4:00 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17662
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 49 of 60 (811051)
06-04-2017 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Tangle
06-03-2017 4:25 PM


Tangle writes:

Here you job is to show why IQ is not negatively related to religiosity - if that is your claim.


"Not negatively related"? That kind of contortion should set off your own alarm bells.

You're the one making the claim. It's right there in your topic title: "Atheists are more intelligent than Religious people". I'm just questioning your claim. You're the one who's making the extrapolation from "better at tests" to "more intelligent". The onus is on you to justify that extrapolation.

What does "more intelligent" even mean?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Tangle, posted 06-03-2017 4:25 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Tangle, posted 06-04-2017 2:36 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17662
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 51 of 60 (811056)
06-04-2017 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Tangle
06-04-2017 2:36 PM


Tangle writes:

ringo writes:

What does "more intelligent" even mean?


Ah, now I understand your problem.

Then answer the question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Tangle, posted 06-04-2017 2:36 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Tangle, posted 06-04-2017 3:06 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17662
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 53 of 60 (811064)
06-04-2017 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Tangle
06-04-2017 3:06 PM


Tangle writes:

You want me to give you the wiki on intelligence? Really?


No. I didn't ask what intelligence is. I asked: What does MORE intelligent mean?

What are the real-world implications of being "more intelligent"? What impact does it have on your life? What are the concrete results of the number 120 being bigger than the number 110?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Tangle, posted 06-04-2017 3:06 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Tangle, posted 06-04-2017 3:33 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17662
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 55 of 60 (811067)
06-04-2017 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Tangle
06-04-2017 3:33 PM


Tangle writes:

University entrance, higher paid jobs?


So atheists have higher paying jobs than religious people?

Tangle writes:

Faster learning, greater ability to understand complex ideas, ability to do hard sums that help us understand the universe, ability to talk shit on internet fora?


Do you have evidence that atheists are "better" at those things than religious people?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Tangle, posted 06-04-2017 3:33 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Tangle, posted 06-04-2017 3:59 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17662
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 57 of 60 (811142)
06-05-2017 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Tangle
06-04-2017 3:59 PM


Tangle writes:

I dunno, seems likely but the paper and the thread deals with intelligence and religiosity. Perhaps you could address that?


It's your point. Perhaps you should address it yourself. You claimed that "more intelligent" means higher paid jobs. Unless you can back that up, it seems that "more intelligent" is meaningless rhetoric.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Tangle, posted 06-04-2017 3:59 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Tangle, posted 06-05-2017 11:51 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17662
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 59 of 60 (811150)
06-05-2017 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Tangle
06-05-2017 11:51 AM


Tangle writes:

You asked for examples of how IQ affected our lives, I gave you a few including that. Now you're attempting to turn the topic away from the actual point which has to do with religiosity not jobs.


Try to keep up:

1. You claim that "Atheists are more intelligent than Religious people".
2. I asked what "more intelligent" means.
3. You gave, as an example, the ability to make more money.

IF you could demonstrate that atheists make more money than atheists (on average), then MAYBE that would be because they are more intelligent and your conclusion MIGHT be valid.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Tangle, posted 06-05-2017 11:51 AM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Davidjay, posted 06-05-2017 10:04 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
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