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Author Topic:   Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Dredge
Member (Idle past 100 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 451 of 1311 (810842)
06-02-2017 4:01 AM
Reply to: Message 446 by dwise1
05-31-2017 3:05 AM


Since 1981 you've been looking for evidence of creation and you've not yet found any? What would that evidence look like?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 446 by dwise1, posted 05-31-2017 3:05 AM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 453 by ringo, posted 06-02-2017 12:25 PM Dredge has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1431 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 452 of 1311 (810846)
06-02-2017 6:32 AM
Reply to: Message 450 by Dredge
06-02-2017 3:07 AM


Re: maybe we should cholera a new vaccine ...
RAZD writes:
Just as understanding the genetic similarities with pigs was useful in finding vaccines for ... Swine influenza
Really. Ok, there are similarities. So what? These similarities exist whether one is an evolutionist, a creationist, a Hindu, a Scientologist or a Freemason. In other words, the existence of the genetic similarities between humans and pigs is independent of the theory that humans and chimps have a common ancestor ... and the theory that all life on earth shares a common ancestor.
Therefore, I suspect that you are mistaken - the theory of common descent was a complete irrelevance in developing swine flu vaccine.
Ok, so I've looked into this and cannot find any reference that says it was used in making the vaccine.
What I did find was that it was useful in understanding how these diseases originated and were spread -- because of the genetic similarity between humans and apes and pigs.
This genetic similarity is due to descent from common ancestor, which is known from the genetic markers that are non-coding sections of DNA that are common in the same places and can only come from inheritance ... unless you like billion to 1 odds repeated hundreds of times or a jester god that make it look like common descent.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
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to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 450 by Dredge, posted 06-02-2017 3:07 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 457 by Dredge, posted 06-05-2017 3:45 AM RAZD has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 453 of 1311 (810873)
06-02-2017 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 451 by Dredge
06-02-2017 4:01 AM


Dredge writes:
Since 1981 you've been looking for evidence of creation and you've not yet found any? What would that evidence look like?
Shouldn't YOU be the one looking for evidence of creation? What would YOU consider to be evidence of creation?
Or are you just anti-evolution/anti-science?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 451 by Dredge, posted 06-02-2017 4:01 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 454 by Dredge, posted 06-04-2017 5:42 AM ringo has replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 100 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 454 of 1311 (811005)
06-04-2017 5:42 AM
Reply to: Message 453 by ringo
06-02-2017 12:25 PM


I see anecdotal evidence of creation every day - a beautiful woman, for example! But scientifically speaking, there is irreducible complexity, for starters.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 453 by ringo, posted 06-02-2017 12:25 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 455 by RAZD, posted 06-04-2017 7:05 AM Dredge has not replied
 Message 456 by ringo, posted 06-04-2017 2:28 PM Dredge has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1431 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 455 of 1311 (811007)
06-04-2017 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 454 by Dredge
06-04-2017 5:42 AM


I see anecdotal evidence of creation every day - a beautiful woman, for example! ...
The product of millennia of generations of sexual selection, which also selects your reaction to her beauty ...
... But scientifically speaking, there is irreducible complexity, for starters.
Irreducible complexity has been scientifically falsified. See Irreducible Complexity, Information Loss and Barry Hall's experiments for a thread on this.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : .

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 454 by Dredge, posted 06-04-2017 5:42 AM Dredge has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 456 of 1311 (811052)
06-04-2017 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 454 by Dredge
06-04-2017 5:42 AM


Dredge writes:
I see anecdotal evidence of creation every day - a beautiful woman, for example!
What about ugly women then? What about parasitic worms?
Dredge writes:
But scientifically speaking, there is irreducible complexity, for starters.
Irreducible complexity is not scientific.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 454 by Dredge, posted 06-04-2017 5:42 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 100 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 457 of 1311 (811092)
06-05-2017 3:45 AM
Reply to: Message 452 by RAZD
06-02-2017 6:32 AM


Re: maybe we should cholera a new vaccine ...
RAZD writes:
I've looked into this and cannot find any references that says it was used in making the vaccine.
I'm not the slightest bit surprised.
What I did find was that it was useful in understating how these diseases originated and were spread - because of the genetic similarity between humans and apes and pigs.
"because of the genetic similarity between humans and apes and pigs" - not because of any theory about common descent. In other words, common descent is irrelevant and is actually of no practical use to anyone.
This similarity is due to descent from a common ancestor.
This is just Darwinist rhetoric. I could offer the explanation that the similarity is due to all life being created by the same Creator, who used the same "building blocks" in all life forms. But my Creationist model doesn't assist or advance applied science - and neither does your Darwinist model of common descent.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 452 by RAZD, posted 06-02-2017 6:32 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 458 by RAZD, posted 06-05-2017 9:27 AM Dredge has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1431 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 458 of 1311 (811116)
06-05-2017 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 457 by Dredge
06-05-2017 3:45 AM


Re: maybe we should cholera a new vaccine ...
"because of the genetic similarity between humans and apes and pigs" - not because of any theory about common descent. In other words, common descent is irrelevant and is actually of no practical use to anyone.
And yet the genetic similarity is due to common descent, which is shown by the genetic markers that serve to purpose but show up in the same locii in different species. Having one such common marker is highly unlikely -- different mutations randomly occurring in the same place, two become astromomically squared, three becomes insanely improbable.
This is just Darwinist rhetoric. I could offer the explanation that the similarity is due to all life being created by the same Creator, who used the same "building blocks" in all life forms. ...
You could indeed, however that means you believe in a god that provides false evidence and tries to make fools of people. A jester god like Loki?
Somehow I don't believe that is your goal.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 457 by Dredge, posted 06-05-2017 3:45 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 466 by Dredge, posted 06-09-2017 4:18 AM RAZD has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10073
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 459 of 1311 (811392)
06-07-2017 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 449 by Dredge
06-02-2017 2:59 AM


Dredge writes:
In post #392 RAZD claimed that the theory that humans and apes have a common ancestor "was useful in finding vaccines for HIV".
It would be a waste of time to find that information because as soon as we supplied it you would shift the goal posts to "bacteria and humans sharing a common ancestor". You have shown that you have no interest in knowledge, facts, or science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 449 by Dredge, posted 06-02-2017 2:59 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10073
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 460 of 1311 (811393)
06-07-2017 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 450 by Dredge
06-02-2017 3:07 AM


Re: maybe we should cholera a new vaccine ...
Dredge writes:
Really. Ok, there are similarities. So what? These similarities exist whether one is an evolutionist, a creationist, a Hindu, a Scientologist or a Freemason. In other words, the existence of the genetic similarities between humans and pigs is independent of the theory that humans and chimps have a common ancestor ... and the theory that all life on earth shares a common ancestor.
The evidence for evolution is a nested hierarchy which creationism can't explain. It isn't simply shared characteristics. The useful part of evolution is that it predicts a phylogenetic signal.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 450 by Dredge, posted 06-02-2017 3:07 AM Dredge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 461 by RAZD, posted 06-07-2017 4:59 PM Taq has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1431 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 461 of 1311 (811412)
06-07-2017 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 460 by Taq
06-07-2017 4:12 PM


Re: maybe we should cholera a new vaccine ...
The evidence for evolution is a nested hierarchy which creationism can't explain. ...
Including the genetic evidence in the non-coding 'junk' sections where their existence and preservation can only be explained by (a) evolution or (b) a jester hoodwinking god.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 460 by Taq, posted 06-07-2017 4:12 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 462 by Taq, posted 06-07-2017 5:46 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10073
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 462 of 1311 (811414)
06-07-2017 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 461 by RAZD
06-07-2017 4:59 PM


Re: maybe we should cholera a new vaccine ...
RAZD writes:
Including the genetic evidence in the non-coding 'junk' sections where their existence and preservation can only be explained by (a) evolution or (b) a jester hoodwinking god.
As you have noted, the species distribution and LTR divergence of endogenous retroviruses is a perfect explanation.
In recent threads we have seen at least 3 common creationist misconceptions of evolution:
1. Species should evolve out of their clade.
2. Observations of natural selection is used as evidence for common ancestry.
3. Similarities alone evidence evolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 461 by RAZD, posted 06-07-2017 4:59 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 463 by CRR, posted 06-09-2017 3:41 AM Taq has replied
 Message 464 by CRR, posted 06-09-2017 3:51 AM Taq has not replied
 Message 465 by Dredge, posted 06-09-2017 4:11 AM Taq has not replied

  
CRR
Member (Idle past 2269 days)
Posts: 579
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 463 of 1311 (811525)
06-09-2017 3:41 AM
Reply to: Message 462 by Taq
06-07-2017 5:46 PM


Re: Junk
Except that since ENCODE it has been clear that there is little junk DNA. More functions are being discovered in what was formerly called junk, even in pseudogenes.
The argument from ERV's only applies if they are part of the junk and they were indeed caused by past viral infections. However some ERV's have been shown to be part of functional DNA, and the evidence that they came from past infections is only based on similarity. Since we don't see ERV's moving toward fixity now viruses must have stopped doing it a long time ago.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 462 by Taq, posted 06-07-2017 5:46 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 469 by JonF, posted 06-09-2017 8:20 AM CRR has not replied
 Message 470 by Taq, posted 06-09-2017 10:57 AM CRR has replied

  
CRR
Member (Idle past 2269 days)
Posts: 579
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 464 of 1311 (811526)
06-09-2017 3:51 AM
Reply to: Message 462 by Taq
06-07-2017 5:46 PM


Re: maybe we should cholera a new vaccine ...
1. Species should evolve out of their clade.
2. Observations of natural selection is used as evidence for common ancestry.
3. Similarities alone evidence evolution.
1. Species should evolve out of their clade.
No but species should evolve to produce new clades nested within clades and the ultimate clade is the one beginning with LUCA.
2. Observations of natural selection is used as evidence for common ancestry.
Darwin proposed natural selection as the cause of common ancestry so in that sense it is evidence. Often observations of natural selection are touted as evolution in action; such as Darwin's Finches and Trinidad Guppies.
3. Similarities alone evidence evolution.
Isn't that how cladistics works? By creating a tree based on similarities?
Cladistics (from Greek κλάδος, klados, i.e., "branch") is an approach to biological classification in which organisms are categorized based on shared derived characteristics.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 462 by Taq, posted 06-07-2017 5:46 PM Taq has not replied

  
Dredge
Member (Idle past 100 days)
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 465 of 1311 (811528)
06-09-2017 4:11 AM
Reply to: Message 462 by Taq
06-07-2017 5:46 PM


Re: maybe we should cholera a new vaccine ...
Taq writes:
creationist misconceptions of evolution ... Observations of natural selection is used as evidence for common ancestory
Darwinists claim antibiotic resistance is an example of evolution.
Antibiotic resistance is nothing more than natural selection.
Common ancestry is evolution.
... Therefore Darwinists use natural selection as evidence for common descent.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 462 by Taq, posted 06-07-2017 5:46 PM Taq has not replied

  
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