Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Trilobites, Mountains and Marine Deposits - Evidence of a flood?
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(3)
Message 259 of 519 (810989)
06-03-2017 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by Faith
06-03-2017 1:01 PM


Re: Just the Usual Fantasy Flood Scenario
Faith writes:
The other problems don't matter a lot when the main facts support the Flood and discredit the Time Scale.
Actually, none of the other details matter because of the time scale and modern dating methods.
You have admitted that you can't explain away modern dating and choose to accept the bible as superior evidence.
That does not make all of the dating evidence go away. Its still there, inconvenient as it is.
RAZD has posted several excellent threads on the subject, and I have posted evidence from my own archaeological and genetic research showing there was no flood in the ca. 4350 BP time frame. To counter this you have had to move the flood back hundreds of millions of years and deny all modern dating methods.
But again, your denial does not make the evidence go away, its still there and there's more of it each year.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Faith, posted 06-03-2017 1:01 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by Faith, posted 06-03-2017 7:45 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 267 of 519 (811082)
06-04-2017 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by Faith
06-04-2017 7:45 PM


Re: Just the Usual Fantasy Flood Scenario
I've answered the evidence, not ignored it.
Not so. You have "reinterpreted" much of the geological evidence from a biblical bias, and all of your answers have been based on that. When approached from a real-world perspective you are completely wrong.
And the dating issue, that underlies and disproves all your claims, you just attempt to hand-wave away. You can't explain why (nor can any other creationists) but you dismiss it anyway. That's the exact opposite of science.
Rapid deposition of the strata is evidenced in what I've said and that means that the millions of years per time period is wrong. I believe it's clearly shown in the facts I've given.
Again, wrong, for the reasons I outlined above

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Faith, posted 06-04-2017 7:45 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by Faith, posted 06-04-2017 11:18 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 269 of 519 (811084)
06-04-2017 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by Faith
06-04-2017 11:18 PM


Re: Just the Usual Fantasy Flood Scenario
Since you don't bother to debate my points I think you are guilty of nothing but bias without the slightest "real-world" observation.
I'm not a geologist, but the geologists here have refuted your points quite well.
But one of the things I do is radiocarbon dating, and you have not bothered to debate my points on that--you just claim the dates are wrong, somehow.
This has been a standard creationist answer to the dating issue--they can't refute it so they hand-wave it away. But it doesn't go away, it just gets stronger all the time.
And the dating issue alone disproves the global flood during historic times and the young earth belief.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by Faith, posted 06-04-2017 11:18 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by Faith, posted 06-05-2017 10:32 AM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 272 of 519 (811127)
06-05-2017 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by Faith
06-05-2017 10:32 AM


Re: Just the Usual Flood Scenario
If the evidence shows continuous rapid deposition of the strata and refutes the idea of millions of years per time period, which it does, then it makes other contrary evidence irrelevant, such as Old Earth dating.
But the dating has been shown to be accurate, which necessarily shows that the flood geology scenario is incorrect.
I presume this is why creationists do their best to ignore and hand-wave away the dating issue--the dating issue alone disproves both the global flood ca. 4350 years ago and the YEC belief.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Faith, posted 06-05-2017 10:32 AM Faith has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 278 of 519 (811187)
06-05-2017 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by Faith
06-05-2017 5:04 PM


Re: Just the Usual Fantasy Flood Scenario
I've described the evidence, the evidence I showed and argued for on previous threads which I'm sure you remember.
But you have consistently had to hand-wave away the evidence from dating. The dating evidence demonstrates conclusively that those layers were not laid down in a short time such as a year, but spanned millions of years.
Dating shows that those layers span 1.84 billion years old to 270 million years old. In other words, those layers span about a third of the age of the earth, but you are forced to (try to) hand-wave that evidence away to fit with your a priori beliefs.
But that evidence is still there; it doesn't go away just because it is inconvenient.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Faith, posted 06-05-2017 5:04 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by Faith, posted 06-05-2017 7:15 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(3)
Message 305 of 519 (811285)
06-06-2017 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 304 by Faith
06-06-2017 2:58 PM


The dating issue -- again
Not sure about trilobites, maybe I missed that argument. but marine fossils in the mountains are evidence of the Flood primarily because they are found in strata.
You have the same problem with trilobites as you do with Grand Canyon strata. Trilobites are dated from about 521 million years ago until they disappeared in the mass extinction at the end of the Permian about 252 million years ago.
Two problems are insurmountable for you:
1) trilobites span well over 250 million years, not one year, and
2) there were no humans around for well over 250 million years after trilobites disappeared.
Creationists keep trying to hand-wave away the dating issue, but it doesn't go away.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by Faith, posted 06-06-2017 2:58 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 307 by Faith, posted 06-06-2017 4:25 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 309 of 519 (811295)
06-06-2017 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 307 by Faith
06-06-2017 4:25 PM


Re: The dating issue -- again
Trilobites show up in a great number of layers spanning supposedly hundreds of millions of years without evolving beyond the usual variations within the Kind. They are just cousins of each other that got buried in separate strata.
There are at least nine orders of trilobites, and thousands of different genera. That's way too large a variation for a "kind" because if you argue for such a broad variation for the "trilobite kind" here, you have to accept such a broad variation for other critters. For example, all primates are within a single order, Primates. You can't have it both ways with your definition of "kind."
They and the coelecanths mentioned on another thread, which also show up in a great number of layers/"time periods," don't change from layer to layer or "time period" to "time period" beyond the usual changes attributable to microevolution within the Kind.
Coelacanths occur in at least five families, each with a number of genera and species. So, no, you can't claim that trilobites and coelecanths "don't change from layer to layer." The changes between families are macroevolution, and took a lot of time to occur.
And like trilobites, they span a huge amount of time--far more than a year. Coelecanths date as far back as 400 million years.
Again, the dating issue shows young earth beliefs to be false.
Since these are as far as I know the only two creatures to appear in so many "time periods" their nonevolution is evidence against macroevolution in general and against the whole Old Earth dating system. It's the ones that show up in only one or two "time periods' that are claimed to have evolved so dramatically based on absolutely no evidence that they did. When we have real evidence, in the case of the trilobites and coelecanths we can see that there is no such thing as macroevolution in the fossil record.
You can deny the evidence all you want, just as you do with dating, but denials are not evidence! Claims you make up so that things fit your religious beliefs are not evidence.
And therefore the dating methods are again shown to be false.
Again, this is not the case. It is your argument that is shown to be false.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 307 by Faith, posted 06-06-2017 4:25 PM Faith has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 315 of 519 (811333)
06-07-2017 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 314 by Faith
06-07-2017 8:59 AM


Re: The dating issue -- again
Don't YECs get to define the Kind?
YECs do get to define kind, but not species or other things to do with science.
YECs get to deal with talking snakes and other fantasies, while scientists deal with the real world.
The difference is YECs are anti-science and so their opinions, claims and beliefs are of no relevance to science.
If they followed the scientific method things might be different (for one thing, they wouldn't be YECs).

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by Faith, posted 06-07-2017 8:59 AM Faith has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 321 of 519 (811342)
06-07-2017 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 320 by Faith
06-07-2017 10:18 AM


Re: The dating issue -- again
Failure to convince you and other ToE aficionados is not the same as failure to make the case.
Perhaps the reason you couldn't convince others is that the case you made was easily disproved?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by Faith, posted 06-07-2017 10:18 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 324 by Faith, posted 06-07-2017 10:32 AM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 333 of 519 (811629)
06-09-2017 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 331 by Minnemooseus
06-09-2017 7:34 PM


Re: Mainstream geologic theory put into hyperdrive
Nor does a mountain building event fit into young-Earthism.
In order to fit such into young-Earthism, you must invoke magic, because is does not work as any variety of natural process. You are saying God created with false evidence of old age.
The same is true of archaeology and paleontology and related sciences.
In order to support the young earth belief, one has to deny, obfuscate, ignore, misrepresent, or otherwise hand-wave away the dating evidence. If one can't do that, the dating evidence by itself disproves both the young earth belief and the "exact" date posited for the global flood.
There is overwhelming archaeological evidence that there was no global flood during historic times, so there goes the "exact" date of 4348 years ago.
That is why we see the global flood not being placed at the "exact" date of 4348 years ago, but at the KT or even the PT boundary or even older, sometimes being said to have deposited the lowest layers of the Grand Canyon some 1.8 billion years ago!
What we are seeing is not science but anti-science, in other words, religious apologetics.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by Minnemooseus, posted 06-09-2017 7:34 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 353 of 519 (811752)
06-11-2017 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 352 by edge
06-11-2017 3:14 PM


Belief vs. Evidence
There are so many things wrong with the Faith scenario, that one has no idea where to start.
It is based on belief, not evidence.
In an approach that is the exact opposite of science, creationists have a specific conclusion (belief) in mind, and do their best to fit the evidence into that conclusion.
This is, of course, why presenting evidence won't change the minds (beliefs) of a great many creationists.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by edge, posted 06-11-2017 3:14 PM edge has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 423 of 519 (812114)
06-14-2017 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 422 by Faith
06-14-2017 10:05 PM


Re: water deposition
Your evidence, interpreting the fossils as things that lived in a particular time period, is absolute crazy nonsense.
That evidence, from both radiometric and stratigraphic methods of dating, is not nonsense.
It is real-world evidence that shows millions of years, and your wishes and dis-belief can't make that evidence go away.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 422 by Faith, posted 06-14-2017 10:05 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 425 by Faith, posted 06-14-2017 10:17 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 428 of 519 (812121)
06-14-2017 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 425 by Faith
06-14-2017 10:17 PM


Re: water deposition
I listed real observable evidence, why do you ignore it?
You "interpreted" real observable evidence in a way that is not supported by the evidence.
The content of the layers disproves a short-term event, as does the dating evidence. It is not appropriate to ignore that type of real-world evidence in favor of a priori beliefs.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 425 by Faith, posted 06-14-2017 10:17 PM Faith has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 475 of 519 (812503)
06-16-2017 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 469 by Faith
06-16-2017 8:30 PM


Re: where the sediments came from
I'm doing my best with the facts as I understand them, both from the Bible and from the observed strata and fossils.
No, you are ignoring a lot of facts, and twisting and misinterpreting a lot of others, all because the real-world evidence contradicts the bible.
You can't debunk the Bible, it isn't going to happen.
But the real-world evidence does just that. You are unable to accept it.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 469 by Faith, posted 06-16-2017 8:30 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 476 by Faith, posted 06-16-2017 11:02 PM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024