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Author Topic:   Trilobites, Mountains and Marine Deposits - Evidence of a flood?
edge
Member (Idle past 262 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 316 of 518 (811334)
06-07-2017 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 313 by KyleConno
06-07-2017 8:25 AM


There's actually a hole that scientists dug up in Russia that's 7.5 miles deep. They found water deposits as deep as 5 miles. They say it 's an evidence of water from the great flood.

Please document.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 16338
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 317 of 518 (811335)
06-07-2017 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 314 by Faith
06-07-2017 8:59 AM


Re: The dating issue -- again
quote:

I recall the discussion of the reptilian to mammalian ear, for which there is only one example of each showing enormously different structures for which many steps of transition have to be imagined. Two creatures that far apart with no transitional form in the fossil record, one supposedly evolved from the other for which there is absolutely no evidence, just the assumption

In other words you have no idea of what you are talking about. You don't even know what the differences are.

quote:

Why not?

Because you have no real idea of what you are comparing.

quote:

Don't YECs get to define the Kind?

You don't HAVE a meaningful definition. If you mean "don't YECs get to arbitrarily set Kind boundaries" - which is what you seem to mean the answer is "not if you want anyone to treat it as a serious argument". Because it isn't


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 Message 314 by Faith, posted 06-07-2017 8:59 AM Faith has responded

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 318 of 518 (811338)
06-07-2017 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 317 by PaulK
06-07-2017 9:25 AM


Re: The dating issue -- again
In other words you have no idea of what you are talking about. You don't even know what the differences

Not exactly, without reviewing the information, but I know it involves difference of position of main elements of the inner ear, and of relative size and the absence of a chamber or other structure. Big differences that the ToE expects to have been incrementally bridged over millions of years.

You don't HAVE a meaningful definition. If you mean "don't YECs get to arbitrarily set Kind boundaries" - which is what you seem to mean the answer is "not if you want anyone to treat it as a serious argument". Because it isn't

The definition of the Kind isn't really necessary to the point I'm making anyway about the small changes over hundreds of millions of years that can be seen in the trilobites and coelacanths, versus the enormjous changes assumed to have occurred between the reptilian and mammalian ear in a much shorter time
'
However, I usually don't try to define the Kind except by the functional processes of evolution that can't exceed the boundaries of the genome because of loss of genetic diversity, which I've argued many times..

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 16338
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 319 of 518 (811339)
06-07-2017 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 318 by Faith
06-07-2017 9:58 AM


Re: The dating issue -- again
quote:

Not exactly without reviewing the information, but I know it involves difference of position of main elements of the inner ear, and of relative size and the absence of a chamber or other structure. Big differences that the ToE expects to have been incrementally bridged over millions of years.

In other words you haven't bothered to find out how big the changes are or how many intermediates are known. You just assume that there aren't any and try to pass it off as a fact. And you hypocritically accuse scientists of relying on assumption - based only on YOUR assumption.

quote:

The definition of the Kind isn't really necessary to the point I'm making anyway about the small changes over hundreds of millions of years that can be seen in the trilobites and coelacanths, versus the enormjous changes assumed to have occurred between the reptilian and mammalian ear in a much shorter time

Nor is it relevant to my point that you can't make such a comparison without knowing the magnitude of the variations in each case - and on the evidence you probably don't know that in ANY of the cases.

quote:

However, I usually don't try to define the Kind except by the functional processes of evolution that can't exceed the boundaries of the genome because of loss of genetic diversity, which I've argued many times..

And you have failed to make that case every time.


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 Message 320 by Faith, posted 06-07-2017 10:18 AM PaulK has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 320 of 518 (811341)
06-07-2017 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 319 by PaulK
06-07-2017 10:09 AM


Re: The dating issue -- again
Oh I followed the discussion of the ear evolution at the time. There are no known transitions.

And I have certainly made the case many times for the loss of genetic diversity as the way evolution defeats itself. Failure to convince you and other ToE aficionados is not the same as failure to make the case.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 662 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 321 of 518 (811342)
06-07-2017 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 320 by Faith
06-07-2017 10:18 AM


Re: The dating issue -- again
Failure to convince you and other ToE aficionados is not the same as failure to make the case.

Perhaps the reason you couldn't convince others is that the case you made was easily disproved?


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PaulK
Member
Posts: 16338
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 322 of 518 (811343)
06-07-2017 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 320 by Faith
06-07-2017 10:18 AM


Re: The dating issue -- again
quote:

Oh I followed the discussion of the ear evolution at the time. There are no known transitions

You saw a discussion of known transitional fossils and concluded that there were no known transitionals ? Obviously you can't even remember the basics.

And doing a David Jay and boasting of imaginary victories hardly helps your case.


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JonF
Member
Posts: 6155
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 323 of 518 (811344)
06-07-2017 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 316 by edge
06-07-2017 9:25 AM


There's actually a hole that scientists dug up in Russia that's 7.5 miles deep. They found water deposits as deep as 5 miles. They say it 's an evidence of water from the great flood.

Please document.

Nobody found liquid, solid, or gaseous water deposits. They found H2O bound in various minerals. The only "they" that claims it's evidence of the fludde are creationists, of course. And again of course nobody's hypothesized any mechanism for getting it onto the surface as liquid water, or returning it from the surface.

Google Scholar is refusing to load for me right now, but see New Evidence for Oceans of Water Deep in the Earth.


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 Message 316 by edge, posted 06-07-2017 9:25 AM edge has not yet responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 324 of 518 (811346)
06-07-2017 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 321 by Coyote
06-07-2017 10:21 AM


Re: The dating issue -- again
Perhaps the reason you couldn't convince others is that the case you made was easily disproved?

Na, invocations of mutations conjured out of thin air are not disproof. Just an article of blind faith, one of the many based on the ToE.

It would be very easy to prove my case experimentally but it would take some work either collecting creatures in the wild wherever it is known one population descended from another, or setting up a laboratory situation for the purpose. If I had another lifetime and lots of money I would do it myself.


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Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 325 of 518 (811361)
06-07-2017 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 313 by KyleConno
06-07-2017 8:25 AM


Hello Kyle, but let's get back to the topic
Hi KyleConno and welcome to the fray,

There's actually a hole that scientists dug up in Russia that's 7.5 miles deep. They found water deposits as deep as 5 miles. They say it 's an evidence of water from the great flood.

Curiously this thread is about trilobites on mountaintops, not holes in Siberia. You will note that this topic is being dragged off topic by some posters, when there are other threads to discuss the Grand Canyon and the fantasy flying flood.

Thanks.

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This message is a reply to:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 326 of 518 (811371)
06-07-2017 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 324 by Faith
06-07-2017 10:32 AM


Re: The dating issue -- again
Na

Well I still have open questions in Message 296...


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RAZD
Member
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 327 of 518 (811404)
06-07-2017 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 326 by New Cat's Eye
06-07-2017 1:26 PM


Re: The dating issue -- again
Re: The dating issue -- again

Without addressing the age issues (ALL of them) any comments about floods is rather irrelevant pipe dreaming when discussing how trilobite and other marine deposits end up on mountain tops. It becomes fantasy self-delusion.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 328 of 518 (811418)
06-07-2017 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by New Cat's Eye
06-06-2017 10:12 AM


Re: What would I expect?
I just don't see strata figuring in the normal span of time on earth no matter how long it is. Why should there be sedimentary layers at all, why should there be periodic inundations of the land? These are incorporated into the scenarios of time periods because they are there and that's the prevailing theory, but they contradict each other. The flat sedimentary layers span enormous expanses as well as depths, shown by bore holes at hundreds of locations, utterly incompatible with life on the surface of the earth at any given depth. But completely compatible with the worldwide Flood.

What there should be if the prevailing theory is right? Just the usual surface of the earth at every depth, no separated sediments, perhaps local areas where former living things did manage to get fossilized despite the rarity of conditions for fossilization. The Flood would have supplied those conditions for all the strata, but normally it's very rare. Evidence of former time periods if thy existed would be rare.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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edge
Member (Idle past 262 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


(1)
Message 329 of 518 (811435)
06-07-2017 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 328 by Faith
06-07-2017 6:15 PM


Re: What would I expect?
I just don't see strata figuring in the normal span of time on earth no matter how long it is.

That would be personal incredulity. Just because you can't see it does not mean that it is impossible. It is remotely possible that you are wrong.

Why should there be sedimentary layers at all, ...

Because sedimentary environments change.

... why should there be periodic inundations of the land?

Plate tectonics, climate change, need more?

These are incorporated into the scenarios of time periods because they are there and that's the prevailing theory, but they contradict each other.

How is that?

The flat sedimentary layers span enormous expanses as well as depths, shown by bore holes at hundreds of locations, utterly incompatible with life on the surface of the earth at any given depth. But completely compatible with the worldwide Flood.

Why so? We see trace fossils throughout the geological record.

What there should be if the prevailing theory is right? Just the usual surface of the earth at every depth, no separated sediments, perhaps local areas where former living things did manage to get fossilized despite the rarity of conditions for fossilization.

What is the "usual surface of the earth"? What are "separated sediments"?

Why can't they be because of changing sedimentary environments?

The Flood would have supplied those conditions for all the strata, but normally it's very rare. Evidence of former time periods if thy existed would be rare.

We have a record of alternating sedimentary environments at most locations. Why is that not a record of time passing?

Edited by edge, : No reason given.


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Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3920
Joined: 09-26-2002


(2)
Message 330 of 518 (811437)
06-07-2017 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
05-25-2008 4:41 AM


REPLAY OF MESSAGE 1
RAZD's message 1:

There are fossil marine deposits on virtually every mountain, including Mt Everest.

These fossil deposits are all of mature marine life, clams many years old, etcetera. If they are evidence of a world wide flood then:

(1) the flood was much longer in duration than is the published conjecture, or

(2) the marine environment was unusually productive, in which case we come to the problem of trilobites ... and all other extinct marine fauna and flora from the Precambrian through the marine dinosaurs ... not surviving the flood.

Thus you have a logical contradiction.

Evidence of multiple layers of mature marine environments on mountains is rather evidence of long ages -- ages to form mature marine environments, ages to cover them, ages for the other mature marine environments to form, and ages for the sedimentary basin to be pushed up into mountains by tectonic activity.

Try to have your messages have some connection to the above quoted.

Adminnemooseus


Or something like that©.

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