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Author Topic:   Contradictions: Hint that Genesis 1 and 2 are Allegorical
jar
Member
Posts: 33418
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 91 of 112 (811301)
06-06-2017 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by CRR
06-06-2017 5:17 PM


Re: No contradictions
CRR writes:

So you're suggesting that Moses knowingly put two contradictory accounts side by side? Or was he too stupid to notice? No, Moses would have understood these as two complementary versions, and they have been read that way for thousands of years. People thousands of years ago were just as intelligent as we are. Actually there was an article I saw several years ago suggesting people are becoming less intelligent.

What people are saying is that Moses, if Moses actually existed, had absolutely nothing to do with writting anything in Genesis.

And yes, a very valid issue I've often discussed is why so often two completely contradictory tales got included in the books that were accepted to become canonized as was done with Genesis 1 and Genesis 2&3 and even more with the two flood myths found in Genesis 6&7.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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Dredge
Member
Posts: 1318
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 92 of 112 (811322)
06-07-2017 5:53 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by jar
06-06-2017 5:23 PM


Re: No contradictions
jar writes:

flood myths


Notice the plethora of very precise chronology in the following passage:

"In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.  And rain fell upon the earth for forty days and forty nights ... and the waters prevailed upon the earth for a hundred and fifty days ... At the end of a hundred and fifty days the waters had abated , and in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, the ark come to rest on the mountains of Ararat.  And the waters continued to abate until the tenth month; in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, the tops of the mountains were seen ... In the six hundred and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month ... Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and behold the face of the ground was dry.  In the second month, on the twenty-seventh day of the month, the earth was dry."  Genesis 7:11- 8:5.

Does this read like a myth? I don't think so. It reads like real history.


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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 33418
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 93 of 112 (811324)
06-07-2017 7:17 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Dredge
06-07-2017 5:53 AM


Re: No contradictions
Yes it reads exactly like myth.

But wait, there's more.

The Bible has two mutually exclusive flood myths all mushed up together.

The Bible has two creation myths and they two contradict each other in the order of creation, the method of creation and in the descriptions of the god character.

In fact all of Genesis and Exodus read just like myths and folk tales.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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vimesey
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Posts: 1256
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 6.6


Message 94 of 112 (811326)
06-07-2017 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Dredge
06-07-2017 5:53 AM


Re: No contradictions
It reads like real history.

So does this chronology of part of the history of Tolkien's Middle Earth: http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_Arda

He was a superb story teller though - not many authors invent a coherent language with its own alphabet to underpin their work.

You will find his work, however, in the fantasy section and not the history section.

Edited by vimesey, : No reason given.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

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ringo
Member
Posts: 19237
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 95 of 112 (811387)
06-07-2017 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Dredge
06-07-2017 5:53 AM


Re: No contradictions
Dredge writes:

Does this read like a myth? I don't think so. It reads like real history.


Hint: myths talk about what the gods are thinking; history doesn't.

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Davidjay 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1323 days)
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 96 of 112 (811491)
06-08-2017 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Dredge
06-07-2017 5:53 AM


Re: No contradictions
TRUE Dredge..... Genesis is exact and reads as history because it is history, and that contradicts the atheists and evolutionists and makes them mad at the worldwide flood and its proofs and exactness. So they fight it tooth and nail, and demand that their creationist opposition stops. So they attempt to shut them up, one way or another.

SEE and study the TRUE HISTORY OF THE FLOOD thread..... its my thread suggestion and my proofs, but it just straight from Genesis and anyone can prove it for themselves.....

There are no contradictions, in the geological amazing record. No missing links or misssing gaps, its all chronological and exact

I am not allowed to give my hyperlinks but anyone can find out the history for themselves if they search and are honest.

.

.

Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given.


Thanks to the webmasters HERE for allowing me to defeat atheists and evolutionists HERE, and show they have no math, no science backing them up and that they are totally dependant on semantics and luck and chance as their only support for their religion. Thanks again...

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 1100 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 97 of 112 (811499)
06-08-2017 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Davidjay
06-08-2017 7:00 PM


Re: No contradictions
TRUE Dredge..... Genesis is exact and reads as history because it is history, and that contradicts the atheists and evolutionists and makes them mad at the worldwide flood and its proofs and exactness. So they fight it tooth and nail, and demand that their creationist opposition stops. So they attempt to shut them up, one way or another.

SEE and study the TRUE HISTORY OF THE FLOOD thread..... its my thread suggestion and my proofs, but it just straight from Genesis and anyone can prove it for themselves.....

There are no contradictions, in the geological amazing record. No missing links or misssing gaps, its all chronological and exact

The flood at your "exact" date has been disproved. I posted the evidence a dozen times, but so far you have refused to acknowledge those posts or respond in any meaningful way.

You have no evidence, you lose.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Davidjay, posted 06-08-2017 7:00 PM Davidjay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Davidjay, posted 06-08-2017 8:05 PM Coyote has responded

  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1323 days)
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 98 of 112 (811501)
06-08-2017 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Coyote
06-08-2017 7:56 PM


Re: No contradictions
See TRUE HISTORY OF THE WORLDWIDE FLOOD... I have proven it and its exactness many times, if you dont like it so be it. Your problem. The dating has been solved and is EXACT. Deal with it.

And as you already know, I am not allowed to oppose your fantasities in science there, and so just hang out in the COFFEE SHOP and am teaching biblical and prophecy truths NOW.

The SCIENCE field is totally without opposition, as thats the only way evolutionists are used to operating and enforcing their luck and chance doctrine and theory.

Gensis 1 and 2 are not allegorical but literal... and the 24 hour day is justified rather than eons between the plant life creation and the sun creation by the Lord of all Creations... sometimes called the Lord of Lords and King of Kings.... also called JESUS.

Ha, I can supposedly write his NAME here becauyse this is the BIBLE sub-board, so I think I can get away with it. We shall see, oh how the evolutionsts/atheists complain...... even about the Bible.

Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given.


Thanks to the webmasters HERE for allowing me to defeat atheists and evolutionists HERE, and show they have no math, no science backing them up and that they are totally dependant on semantics and luck and chance as their only support for their religion. Thanks again...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Coyote, posted 06-08-2017 7:56 PM Coyote has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Coyote, posted 06-08-2017 8:09 PM Davidjay has responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1100 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 99 of 112 (811502)
06-08-2017 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Davidjay
06-08-2017 8:05 PM


Re: No contradictions
See TRUE HISTORY OF THE WORLDWIDE FLOOD... I have proven it and its exactness many times, if you dont like it so be it. Your problem. The dating has been solved and is EXACT. Deal with it.

Your date may be "exact" but there was no flood at that "exact" time.

You read old tribal myths, I read the real-world evidence from the soils--and both my own research and that of archaeologists and geologists around the world say there was no such flood. Deal with it.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Davidjay, posted 06-08-2017 8:05 PM Davidjay has responded

Replies to this message:
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Davidjay 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1323 days)
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 100 of 112 (811513)
06-08-2017 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Coyote
06-08-2017 8:09 PM


Re: No contradictions
You must be a protected species ?

Thanks to the webmasters HERE for allowing me to defeat atheists and evolutionists HERE, and show they have no math, no science backing them up and that they are totally dependant on semantics and luck and chance as their only support for their religion. Thanks again...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Coyote, posted 06-08-2017 8:09 PM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Christian7
Member
Posts: 627
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 101 of 112 (888486)
09-18-2021 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by lpetrich
04-22-2003 4:41 AM


quote:
And furthermore, those differing creation orders are critical to the storylines of the two creation stories.
G1 is step-by-step, with God creating one thing at a time, and with humanity as God's last and best creation. God seems very happy with what he had done -- happy enough to take a day off, the first Sabbath Day there ever was.

In G1, anything created after humanity would be rather anticlimactic -- and both sexes are created at the same time.

However, in G2, God has to fix his creation as he goes. First he creates Adam, but Adam gets lonely. Then he creates lots of animals, but Adam is still not satisfied. Then he creates Eve, but though Adam becomes less lonely, a certain mischievous snake leads that couple astray. God must be rather exasperated at the end of that story.

In G2, it would not make sense for God to create Adam's most satisfactory companion, Eve, before the others.

There are other differences:

G1: God is elohim
G2: God is yhwh elohim, often translated as "the LORD God"

In G1, God is relatively distant, creating by commanding that this, that, and the other thing come into existence.

In G2, God is more down-to-earth, walking in the Garden of Eden, creating Adam from some dirt, and creating Eve from one of Adam's ribs.


There is no contradiction whatsoever in these two chapters of Genesis. Not one has been demonstrated.

Edited by Christian7, : No reason given.


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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6007
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 102 of 112 (888491)
09-18-2021 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Christian7
09-18-2021 5:39 PM


There is no contradiction whatsoever in these two chapters of Genesis. Not one has been demonstrated.

But that is what lpetrich did in his post from the way, way, way back machine. He pointed out lots of contradictions in the two differing stories. He handed the myths in your perfect bible the telltale stain of human composition in its opening chapters.

Your bible is a faulty human construct.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 15611
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 103 of 112 (888510)
09-19-2021 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by vimesey
06-07-2017 7:28 AM


Re: No contradictions
vimesey writes:

He(Tolkien) was a superb storyteller though - not many authors invent a coherent language with its own alphabet to underpin their work.

You will find his work, however, in the fantasy section and not the history section.

The Bible is not in the fantasy section, however. If anything, the Bible accurately describes human nature (and psychology) as well as any modern theory.

But I won't try and define where the Bible *should* fit in any bookstore. You and I will take from it what we want.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 106 by AZPaul3, posted 09-19-2021 4:26 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
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Phat
Member
Posts: 15611
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 104 of 112 (888512)
09-19-2021 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by AZPaul3
09-18-2021 8:41 PM


Contradictions and Human Constructions
AZPaul3 writes:

Your bible is a faulty human construct.

Humans themselves are faulty constructs. Otherwise, global warming and failure to address it never would have happened.(The failure to address it part, anyway) I suppose that some wag somewhere will attempt to blame God for global warming. It is easy to point the finger away from ourselves.

Edited by Phat, : spelling


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo

“The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).


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 Message 102 by AZPaul3, posted 09-18-2021 8:41 PM AZPaul3 has not yet responded

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6007
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 105 of 112 (888522)
09-19-2021 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Phat
09-19-2021 2:24 PM


Re: No contradictions
If anything, the Bible accurately describes human nature (and psychology) as well as any modern theory.

Your bible wouldn't know women's nature and psychology if it got kick in its ham-fisted misogynistic patriarchal balls. Same for slave relationships. And there are a lot more disconnects. Your bible's psychological constructs and morals are stoneage archaic, brutal, inhumane and are rejected in modern theory.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Phat, posted 09-19-2021 2:24 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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