Summations Only

As I may have said a time or two before, I believe that God created a free willed Lucifer and also created the possibility of evil ....an attractive nuisance if you will. By choosing to deny/ignore/override God, Lucifer thus became Satan.Is what you are saying that hypothetically there was never any need to create the possibility of evil?What about the possibility of ignoring God? On the one hand, you guys complain that He never reveals Himself. On the other hand, you have chosen to go with the "evidence" that proves His absence. Should God have hypothetically given you this freedom?

No, it is not found. There are none that specifically refute the notion either, however.

As you yourself would say, religious dogma and/or shared societal ideas about God and Gods nature are not limited exclusively to the book now known as the Bible.Which of course lends support to your assertion that God is a product of human myth and legend.I believe that this is not exclusively the case. I believe that God exists and would exist without any Bibles, stories, or legends.Where we may have a point of contention involves a consensus on what characteristics such a Creator of all seen and unseen would actually have apart from what humans want Him to have.

In addition, I disagree with your idea that GOD is complete, rather than simply good.To me, it seems more logical that evil was created as a necessary possibility (in order to preserve free will) rather than as an absolute yang countering goods yin.I realize that Isaiah says otherwise...but I am allowing my own belief to further explain the God I want rather than quite possibly the GOD who is.If the GOD WHO Is is totally unlike the God who in my mind seems more fair and just, I would be extremely disillusioned and defiant towards such a Being.I have heard entire sermons describing why God is good all the time and all the time God is good. It is a bumper sticker in contemporary Christianity.Having Satan as a plot device...a villain who freely chose to rebel...is better in that it gives us something to resist and to hate. How on earth would we ever get along with a GOD Who not only was indifferent to our prayers but Who was at times evil towards us?

More likely is the belief that YOU need Him and will burn yourself by playing with foreign leprechauns. My attitude towards leprechauns is similar to my attitude towards a pair of fake Air Jordans sold on e-bay. I go with quality and have chosen what I consider the top quality product.You remain unconvinced that you even need a pair of Jordans and point out to us that they are all shoes.So essentially you are asking us (me) why you should buy what I market.Correct?Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

I dont believe that humans simply invent doctrines without at least believing that the doctrine is sound. Thus I can agree that we "make up" the God we wish to worship and that reality suggests that the GOD Who Is is likely unlike the One we desire.I challenge that notion for two reasons. (Both of them beliefs that I choose to embrace)
1) GOD if GOD exists wants a relationship with us.
If this isn't true, what point would there even be to believe?2) GOD has given us an inner unction to find Him.

What DOES The Bible say?
I was reading the Athanasian Creed recently. To wit:

quote:

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Whoever desires to be saved must, above all, hold the [Christian] faith. Whoever does not keep it whole and undefiled will, without doubt, perish eternally.

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And the [Christian] faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity, neither confusing the persons nor dividing the substance. For the Father is one person, the Son is another, and the Holy Spirit is another. But the Godhead of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit is one: the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit: the Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, the Holy Spirit uncreated; the Father infinite, the Son infinite, the Holy Spirit infinite; the Father eternal, the Son eternal, the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet there are not three Eternals, but one Eternal, just as there are not three Uncreated or three Infinites, but one Uncreated and one Infinite. In the same way, the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, the Holy Spirit almighty; and yet there are not three Almighties, but one Almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God; and yet there are not three Gods, but one God. So the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, the Holy Spirit is Lord; and yet there are not three Lords, but one Lord. Just as we are compelled by the Christian truth to acknowledge each distinct person as God and Lord, so also are we prohibited by the [Christian] religion to say that there are three Gods or Lords.

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Martin Luther was quoted summing it up this way:

quote:

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In the first place, the Creed has until now been divided into twelve articles. Yet, if all the doctrinal points that are written in the Scriptures and that belong to the Creed were to be distinctly set forth, there would be far more articles. They could not all be clearly expressed in so few words. But to make the Creed most easily and clearly understood as it is to be taught to children, we shall briefly sum up the entire Creed in three chief articles, according to the three persons in the Godhead [Colossians 2:9]. Everything that we believe is related to these three persons. So the First Article, about God the Father, explains creation. The Second Article, about the Son, explains redemption. And the Third, about the Holy Spirit, explains sanctification. We present them as though the Creed were briefly summarized in so many words: I believe in God the Father, who has created me; I believe in God the Son, who has redeemed me; I believe in the Holy Spirit, who sanctifies me. One God and one faith, but three persons. Therefore, three articles or confessions.
Martin Luther, The Large Catechism

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Thus Luther takes Colossians 2:9 as his Biblical snippet justifying the Trinitarian Doctrine.Do you know much about the history of how the Athanasian Creed came about?
Hopefully, it was motivated by a desire for clarity rather than political ulterior motives...I will have to study it more.

Thats exactly what I have been asking myself lately as I struggle with believing in a God that does not help me nor favor me in any way. He may as well not exist, though I still believe that he does. The father analogy does not help me relate to God...mainly because my father always took care of me and provided help from the day I was 5 until the day he passed (I was 17). He left money for the family and I essentially lived on that money supplemented by my own income for 30 years. Now, as I struggle with getting older and paying my bills, I feel abandoned by God as father figure. I refuse, however, to embrace the ridiculous ideas brought forth here at EvC that disprove and discredit God and Jesus as real presences in human lives. Perhaps Jesus, being human, was the finite piece. Since He is connected to an infinite God, (at one end) and an infinite Holy Spirit(at the other end) He becomes One with them.The only problem I would hypthetically have now is reasoning why there needs to be a GOD (The Father) and a Holy Spirit.

Knock this crap off! Your copypasta is not welcome in this topic! It is off topic and Faith is inactive here and you are answering a post from over a year ago. Knock it off.

Good point. After reviewing a lot of what he writes, I conclude that he is not simply trolling us...he does bring up some considerations in a lengthy and cluttered way. I just dont have time to read all of that pasting. I wish that LNA would be more concise and provide us with links rather than full quotes all of the time.You wanted simple evidence from him, but he does not have it...nor do any of us. If I dig through his pasta, I find some scholarly commentaries that suggest that the whole affair was not simply made up as a political move, but I dont have the time nor desire to study the lengthy pastings that LNA gives us.I guess I was just frustrated seeing all that dumped on a topic I recently opened up so that candle 2 could explain why the Trinity was not a valid Christian concept...which he has so far not done.Maybe I cant expect every poster to be as concise as I want. You likely feel the same way about many of us.

I can live with Him being human while on earth. What any of us are after death nobody knows. I cannot accept that He never existed...and feel that the scholarly arguments are far from conclusive. It makes no sense to me why people would spin a story out of thin air for two thousand years if there were nothing to it. I feel that Jesus existed...as do you...and that there is an unseen Creator. The belief that this Creator is eternally living and seeks to become personal with we humans is plausible though not as simple as it is presented through the dogma.You science types would more likely believe in a superior intelligence being another advanced species somewhere in the near distant universe. Perhaps this has merit. And candle 2 dismisses evolution as a fairytale, largely because someone else mentioned that idea first. Evolution makes sense, but I do not believe that God does NOT make sense...I think that that idea too is plausible.

Do you consider yourself part of any religion at all, or do you simply like copying and pasting old documents to make a particular case or another?

To me, the Holy Spirit is a belief. It cannot be a fact, nor can any amount of early writings document, prove, or disprove it. Back to my original question: Do you have a belief at all, or are you just one who likes researching old documents? See...to me, old documents can prove interesting yet not entirely conclusive. Personally, I thought you had a good case going when you engaged the mythicists. All evidence I read shows me that Richard Carrier is trying to make a name for himself and for some odd reason has a motive to make Jesus vanish. Bart Ehrman responds to and defends himself from Richard Carrier here. Fuller Reply to Richard Carrier Admittedly, I have no solid evidence against Carriers claims and my judgment against his integrity is my own personal opinion.I am convinced that many of these mythicists have an axe to grind, however.Even our very own Theodoric, himself aligned with the mythicists, shows his feelings towards Christians many times. He is no doubt delighted to attempt to make Jesus go away.It will never happen, however. Even if only a myth, the legend will continue as long as humanity lives. And though some Christians are in fact hateful and uninformed, there are many more good ones. Times will also come upon us where the belief will strengthen. Mark my words.

I will agree with the idea that pauls Epistles helped form the bedrock of Christianity, particularly later Protestant Dogma. They are well written and in some parts seem inspired by more than a simple authors imagination, but of course we have no objective proof. I disagree with candles whole two beings thing. I think candle2 is wrong, but I need to do a bit of bible reading first.And you never discuss your personal spirituality...are you atheist? Zoroastrian? unknown?

And yet there is but One God. Jesus is Gods human character. I think you agree. And I see your point about there being no necessity of having 3 in 1. 2 in 1 is enough to handle without confronting the legalistic polytheist accusations.