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Author | Topic: Free will but how free really? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Off hand I can't think of any knowledge that came from religion, can you? If it counted as knowledge then it wouldn't count as religion there's a reason we say it takes faith...
Ignominious and wrong Hubris
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The Reformation let loose an explosion of knowledge that had been suppressed by the previous thousand years of Romanist superstition and oppression including the suppression of the Bible. In fact it was the release of the Bible from the obfuscating Latin into the languages of the common people that liberated the western world.
There was nevertheless some Christian influence before that, such as made the Magna Carta possible for intance. You may hate this: It was the early Christians who considered life so precious that they opposed abortion and rescued infants exposed to die. They founded orphanages and hospitals and promoted all kinds of charities to improve the lot of mankind. Christianity brought about all the civil rights movements, liberal politics, all that, AND it made true empirical science possible. It stimulated individuals to all kinds of inventiveness. Really, you should read something about history that isn't all revisionist secularism. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Faith writes: The Reformation let loose an explosion of knowledge that had been suppressed by the previous thousand years of Romanist superstition and oppression including the suppression of the Bible. Well I'm not going to disagree that religion restriced the growth of knowledge prior to the reformation but I'm also not going to agree that a different flavour of the same religion released it. You are a perfect example of how that belief prevents the progress of knowledge - you and your 'reformed' religion forces you to deny almost all branches of modern science. If your lot we're in charge, we'd be back in the dark ages. Your reformed religion is campaigning against knowledge gain still.
In fact it was the release of the Bible from the obfuscating Latin into the languages of the common people that liberated the western world. It certainly stopped the rot by letting the people hear and understand the gibberish they were actually chanting in their churches. I can't believe that that was a result they expected. So yes, the breakdown of religious dogma and populous control by religions provided a catalyst but it was the Enlightenment and the prior invention of scientific method that started the unstoppable knowledge gain.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
NCE writes: If it counted as knowledge then it wouldn't count as religion there's a reason we say it takes faith... Pretty useless then, the best we can hope for religion then is that it doesn't get in the way of human progress like it did in the past.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
NCE writes: If it counted as knowledge then it wouldn't count as religion there's a reason we say it takes faith... Pretty useless then, For me, religion has been quite useful. My highly analytical and scientific mind utterly failed to meet my emotional needs. It was only after embracing my religion and seeking God's help that I was able to improve my mental health. Finding God showed me the way to finding my self. Finding my self showed me my desires. Having the free will to fulfill those desires allows me the ability to provide my self with pleasure (non-sexual). And that is the key to happiness I'm not saying it's the only way, but it certainly worked for me - and that's not useless.
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
New Cat's Eye writes:
So your self was what you needed all along. "God" was just a means to that end. You might as well say, "Rock climbing showed me the way to finding myself," or, "Marriage showed me the way to finding myself," or, "LSD showed me the way to finding myself."
Finding God showed me the way to finding my self.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
You might as well say, "Rock climbing showed me the way to finding myself," or, "Marriage showed me the way to finding myself," or, "LSD showed me the way to finding myself."
But they didn't...
So your self was what you needed all along. "God" was just a means to that end. Surely. I couldn't find my self, but after I found God I was shown where my self was.
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
New Cat's Eye writes:
Maybe you needed more than one marriage.
But they didn't...
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Stile Member Posts: 4295 From: Ontario, Canada Joined:
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ringo writes: So your self was what you needed all along. "God" was just a means to that end. You might as well say, "Rock climbing showed me the way to finding myself," or, "Marriage showed me the way to finding myself," or, "LSD showed me the way to finding myself." God/religion is a very good (and proven over time) method to help people 'find themselves.'It doesn't work for everyone, but it certainly does work (and sometimes very well) for a great number of people. Yes, it certainly has been shown to also have the possibility for a lot of issues and abuse and excuses for bad behavior.But... so does marriage, LSD and even rock climbing. For some people, it can be absolutely impossible for them to 'find themselves' using any other means except for God.The same way that, for some people, such a thing MUST be done without religion of any kind. People are different, and different methods are going to be required in order to reach the same goal ("happiness").
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Stile writes:
Some people say that the journey is more important than the destination. Sometimes the route passes through Fantasy Land.
People are different, and different methods are going to be required in order to reach the same goal ("happiness").
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
I've never been married.
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
New cat's Eye writes:
I didn't think you had - but you said that my examples didn't work for you. Maybe marriage would have a similar effect as religion.
I've never been married.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Maybe marriage would have a similar effect as religion. I was practically married. I lived with the same woman in a committed monogamous relationship for over 11 years. It actually made me worse. But that's over now.
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
New Cat's Eye writes:
Then, as I said, maybe you needed more than one "practical" marriage. What you have is one data point. I'm just suggesting that there may be others.
I was practically married.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Then, as I said, maybe you needed more than one "practical" marriage. Workin' on it...
What you have is one data point. I'm just suggesting that there may be others. Well duh - you don't ever stop looking for data.
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