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Author Topic:   A Believers Critique Of The Humanist Manifesto
Phat
Member
Posts: 16107
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 61 of 175 (812687)
06-19-2017 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by ringo
08-30-2016 11:58 AM


Re: End Times?
ringo writes:

I know what the fundies think. The point is that they're wrong.
It's the fundies who will follow the AntiChrist while the rest of the world gets more secular. Fundies are just itching for somebody like Ronald Reagan to take us back to the "good old days". THAT is the AntiChrist, who offers the (fundy) world easy solutions to their problems.

This was circulating on Facebook, recently. I don't know how accurate it is....World’s Top Religious Leaders Issue Rare Joint Appeal

As you know, conservative Christians warn this to be an omen of a false global religion.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by ringo, posted 08-30-2016 11:58 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by jar, posted 06-19-2017 3:22 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 63 by ringo, posted 06-20-2017 12:20 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16107
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 64 of 175 (812852)
06-20-2017 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Phat
08-30-2016 12:20 PM


Re: End Times?
Phat,August 30, 2016 writes:

I don't plan to vote for Trump. He won't get elected.
As for the yearning for the good old days, I will admit that this may be a problem for many so-called Biblical Christians. Jesus would have no problem suffering...but we do.

Shows that I don't know the future any better than anybody else!

Seriously though...I dont trust the religious leaders....no matter which religion they embrace. Billy Graham was the last good one that we Christians had...nobody on TV or radio is any good it seems. Of course, I am taught to trust Jesus first....and that has been my modus operendi ever since. I also like discussing this stuff here at EvC> We never seem to agree, though.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Phat, posted 08-30-2016 12:20 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16107
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 65 of 175 (812948)
06-21-2017 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Faith
08-29-2016 5:11 AM


Re: End Times?
Faith writes:

I'm also not sure what to expect but more and more Christians are expecting some kind of worldwide political manifestation soon that is thought of as a Final Act before Jesus returns. But it's not a nonreligious system, it's a religion that will present itself as Christianity though also incorporating most of the religions of the world, and most of the world will consider it to be Christianity. The whole idea of an Antichrist doesn't make sense unless he puts himself in the place of Christ and heads up a religion in Christ's name. (My favorite for the position is the Pope.)

What did you think of this link that I presented in this thread?
World’s Top Religious Leaders Issue Rare Joint Appeal
article writes:

In a rare move, major religious leaders ― from Pope Francis to the Dalai Lama ― issued a joint appeal Wednesday asking people to follow a simple bit of advice: Make friends with people of other faiths.

“Our advice is to make friends to followers of all religions,” Ayatollah Sayyid Fadhel Al-Milani, one of the U.K.’s most senior Shia Muslim clerics, said in a video recording.

“Personal contact, personal friendship, then we can exchange a deeper level of experience,” the Dalai Lama said.

Comments?

For the record, I am against war with Islam. There would be no clear winners in any natural war. After all, what are we fighting for? More to the point WHO are we fighting for?

Edited by Phat, : added jabberwocky


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Faith, posted 08-29-2016 5:11 AM Faith has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16107
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 66 of 175 (812949)
06-21-2017 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by ringo
06-20-2017 12:20 PM


Re: End Times?
jar writes:

Why should the beliefs of conservative Christians be anything but comedic relief?

Aren't YOU a Christian? and now that I think of it...aren't you conservative also?

ringo writes:

Conservative Christians will grasp at every straw to justify their paranoia.

Critics would say that the liberal Christians will embrace the fake new world religion. Comments?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by ringo, posted 06-20-2017 12:20 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by ringo, posted 06-21-2017 3:08 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
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Phat
Member
Posts: 16107
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 69 of 175 (813309)
06-26-2017 3:17 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by ringo
06-20-2017 12:20 PM


The Right To Refuse Service
ringo writes:

"The millennium" has been any minute now for more than a millennium. Two millennia from now, when Botswana is the world superpower, conservative Christians will call it a fulfillment of prophecy.

2 Peter 3:3-7 writes:

First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

I'm not saying it must happen. What I suggest is that if it DID happen, and IF the GOD I market were real, you likely would defiantly refuse Him even to the point of death...simply because you valued your own logic more than you did His.

The importance of religion is declining and the existing religions are fragmenting.
And yet the importance of relationship is at an all time high.

Edited by Phat, : added


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by ringo, posted 06-20-2017 12:20 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by ringo, posted 06-26-2017 11:39 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16107
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 71 of 175 (813435)
06-27-2017 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by ringo
06-26-2017 11:39 AM


Imagine If You Dare
ringo writes:

You have not demonstrated that your religion includes any "relationship" with God.

How would such a relationship be demonstrated?

Imagined relationships count. Otherwise, we have a huge traffic jam behind a lack of evidence. I have pointed out that evidence is not a prerequisite unless one's faith depends solely on it. There really isn't such a thing as an evidenced belief. My point is not that you would reject the GOD who is. You would accept GOD on the contingency of evidence. My point is the God I market won't give you the evidence. I assert that you use the lack of evidence as a sticking point and won't step into belief. I am not marketing Leprechauns, here.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by ringo, posted 06-26-2017 11:39 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Tangle, posted 06-27-2017 1:27 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 73 by ringo, posted 06-27-2017 1:32 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16107
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 75 of 175 (813480)
06-27-2017 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by ringo
06-27-2017 1:32 PM


Re: Imagine If You Dare
ringo writes:

When I'm buying a car if it won't run that's a sticking point. Yes.

The point is that you are not "buying" a belief. You are allowing the possibility without evidence.

Earlier, I asserted:

Phat writes:

What I suggest is that if it DID happen, and IF the GOD I market were real, you likely would defiantly refuse Him even to the point of death...


ringo writes:

Why do you keep saying that? How many times do I have to tell you it isn't true?


phat writes:

My point is the God I market won't give you the evidence.


ringo writes:

And I'm not buyin' it.

So whats the difference between refusing the God I market and not buying it?

You refuse to believe without evidence. True or False?

Perhaps it is only my marketing that you are refusing. You are waiting to see the product before you believe it. New Cats Eye has not seen the product but has seen the results. Are you going to demand that he be monitored 24/7 so that we can all have objective audio proof or are you simply going to accept his anecdotal testimony?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by ringo, posted 06-27-2017 1:32 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by ringo, posted 06-28-2017 3:14 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16107
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 82 of 175 (813584)
06-28-2017 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by ringo
06-28-2017 4:02 PM


Re: Imagine If You Dare
ringo writes:

I'm just saying you're not fundamentally different from me.

After all, if you found no evidence, there is no reason to believe that any other human could possibly find any. As for the billion Muslims, their contention is with the prophets, not the Deity itself. I agree with jar who claims that Islam, Christianity, and Judaism worship the same God.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by ringo, posted 06-28-2017 4:02 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by ringo, posted 06-29-2017 11:43 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16107
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 90 of 175 (813676)
06-29-2017 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by ringo
06-29-2017 11:43 AM


Re: Imagine If You Dare
ringo writes:

And I'm saying that existence is not the salient factor. Even a god that "exists" might be a false god. False and fictional are closely related.

A lot depends on how an issue or belief is framed.

As an example, in my life I have at one or more times had direct experiences perceiving unexplained events. I can't say to the audience that such events were objective proof...since nobody saw or heard what I saw and heard. (as well as two other witnesses) I will mention that these events are necessarily subjective. My perception is the only thing we have to go on. Two others saw essentially the same thing and heard it and none of us were under the influence of any controlled substance. Confirmation bias may well fill in the blanks...as I believe that there is One Spirit and a host of wannabe imitators. Thus in my mind, a voice...feeling...or even observation can be subjectively said to "exist" and yet confirming my belief that it is a false god. A demon. You may choose to frame such an issue as unexplained fiction. I cant control how you frame such descriptions, but I can tell the story of my perceptions.

ringo writes:

Evidence is evident.

How I wish I would have had an audio recorder! Such sounds would of course still be rightly questioned, however.

ringo, responding to NCE writes:

You claim that God responds to you. If I claimed that Long John Silver responds to me, people would call me crazy. So why shouldn't we call you equally crazy?

People can and do. Granted I have a measure of respect within my community due to my reputation for questioning things that most believers won't even touch. Also, I will admit that believers usually believe me while atheists/skeptics are usually skeptical towards me. We still get along, though!
NoNukes, responding to NCE writes:

Do you believe that the basis for your belief is something that would stand up to the scrutiny of a scientific investigation?


Which is a valid question.
NCE writes:

I think the results would be inconclusive, but I'm gonna say "no" here - depending on what you mean by standing up to it. I mean, we'd be dealing with emotions and feelings n'stuff, so I'm not sure how much scientific scrutiny we're going to achieve.

And I feel the same way about my experience standing up to scrutiny. I have to admit that my experience is unevidenced...apart from two friends who to this day could tell the story the same as I tell it...from their own eyewitness experience. In other words, we did not make it up.
ringo writes:

What about the Egyptian gods or the Greek gods or the Hindu gods or the Norse gods? Don't you consider them fictional characters?

Soe of the stories and legends are characters in a book...much as Long John Silver. Nothing more. Others are demons. Yes thats entirely my subjective opinion. In my mind, I have a high degree of confidance that none of them are the Real Slim Shady.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by ringo, posted 06-29-2017 11:43 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by ringo, posted 06-30-2017 11:46 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16107
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 95 of 175 (813809)
06-30-2017 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Tangle
08-21-2016 3:49 AM


Humanist Clout vs Theocratic Clout
It seems that the battle is far from over. The American Humanist Association, a staunch defender of Scientific Integrity recently derided the US Supreme Court for allowing a church to receive federal funding.
AHA Condemns Supreme Court Ruling Sending Tax Dollars to Churches

I would argue that at least some of the taxpayers are Christians...and the church playground benefits secular kids as well...

The issue in my mind is not simply separation of church and state. It is a test as to who calls the shots. The Supreme Court would seem to fill that role.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Tangle, posted 08-21-2016 3:49 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by jar, posted 06-30-2017 9:27 PM Phat has replied
 Message 98 by Tangle, posted 07-01-2017 3:35 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16107
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 101 of 175 (813831)
07-01-2017 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by jar
06-30-2017 9:27 PM


Re: Humanist Clout vs Theocratic Clout
The church claimed discrimination. After all, if the Boy Scouts get funding to improve their playground, surely so too can the church. Thank God the US Supreme Court agreed. As to the other imitators, I suppose they too have a legal basis, though public outcry might shelve the Satanists---or---more likely---the Satanists will eventually force the Christian churches to again lose.

Meanwhile, the boy scouts skate off with public funding! Churches will have to get clever and start Secular programs in order to get funding.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by jar, posted 06-30-2017 9:27 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by jar, posted 07-01-2017 9:42 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16107
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 102 of 175 (813832)
07-01-2017 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Faith
07-01-2017 8:31 AM


Re: Humanist Clout vs Theocratic Clout
Faith writes:

stupidest thing ever since Islam wants to rule the world...

Seculaism will eventually rule the world and will tolerate religions only for so long. The next war will be caused by this. Freedoms will be lost in the name of security.

The sad thing is that the Conservative Christians will do as they have always done and provide only for their own families. Also in regards to the state/church funding, the churches will have to open secular organizations and allow the Islamic and Atheist kids to mingle with the Christian kids. Which may well be Gods overall plan anyway. Isolation won't help.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Faith, posted 07-01-2017 8:31 AM Faith has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16107
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 110 of 175 (814662)
07-11-2017 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Tangle
07-01-2017 3:35 AM


Re: Humanist Clout vs Theocratic Clout
The state represents ALL the people not just some of them.
And yet ALL of the people never agree on anything. In our minds, it is always separation of ________(Insert cause here) and State. We want the state to run the way we feel best represents humanity.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Tangle, posted 07-01-2017 3:35 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16107
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 111 of 175 (866794)
11-16-2019 3:42 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Tangle
08-21-2016 3:49 AM


The Theory Of Relativity: Are we spiritually related?
tangle writes:

And what's this false religion bollocks? All religions are false except the one you were personally born into? Religious belief is not rising, it's falling. Where are you getting these myths from?

Ringo claims Jesus never existed or that if a character with that name did exist, He most assuredly does not represent absolute truth. Secular humanism by nature is relative to the individual whims of humanity. IF God did not exist, secular humanism would be the most logical alternative---indeed the only alternative as we formed a global consensus.

If Jesus is real and alive and is what the apologists say he is, we have a problem in that no consensus can or will) be formed.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Tangle, posted 08-21-2016 3:49 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16107
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 112 of 175 (866795)
11-16-2019 3:52 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Tangle
07-01-2017 3:35 AM


Re: Humanist Clout vs Theocratic Clout
Tangle writes:

The state represents ALL the people not just some of them.

Tangle writes:

It's simple, the answer is the state. How can it be anything else?


Dan 3:1-18 writes:

Nebuchadnezzar the king made an image of gold, whose height was sixty cubits and its width six cubits. He set it up in the plain of Dura, in the province of Babylon. 2 And King Nebuchadnezzar sent word to gather together the satraps, the administrators, the governors, the counselors, the treasurers, the judges, the magistrates, and all the officials of the provinces, to come to the dedication of the image which King Nebuchadnezzar had set up. 3 So the satraps, the administrators, the governors, the counselors, the treasurers, the judges, the magistrates, and all the officials of the provinces gathered together for the dedication of the image that King Nebuchadnezzar had set up; and they stood before the image that Nebuchadnezzar had set up. 4 Then a herald cried aloud: "To you it is commanded, O peoples, nations, and languages, 5 that at the time you hear the sound of the horn, flute, harp, lyre, and psaltery, in symphony with all kinds of music, you shall fall down and worship the gold image that King Nebuchadnezzar has set up; 6 and whoever does not fall down and worship shall be cast immediately into the midst of a burning fiery furnace."

7 So at that time, when all the people heard the sound of the horn, flute, harp, and lyre, in symphony with all kinds of music, all the people, nations, and languages fell down and worshiped the gold image which King Nebuchadnezzar had set up.

8 Daniel's Friends Disobey the King

Therefore at that time certain Chaldeans came forward and accused the Jews. 9 They spoke and said to King Nebuchadnezzar,"O king, live forever! 10 You, O king, have made a decree that everyone who hears the sound of the horn, flute, harp, lyre, and psaltery, in symphony with all kinds of music, shall fall down and worship the gold image; 11 and whoever does not fall down and worship shall be cast into the midst of a burning fiery furnace. 12 There are certain Jews whom you have set over the affairs of the province of Babylon: Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego; these men, O king, have not paid due regard to you. They do not serve your gods or worship the gold image which you have set up."

13 Then Nebuchadnezzar, in rage and fury, gave the command to bring Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego. So they brought these men before the king. 14 Nebuchadnezzar spoke, saying to them, "Is it true, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego, that you do not serve my gods or worship the gold image which I have set up? 15 Now if you are ready at the time you hear the sound of the horn, flute, harp, lyre, and psaltery, in symphony with all kinds of music, and you fall down and worship the image which I have made, good! But if you do not worship, you shall be cast immediately into the midst of a burning fiery furnace. And who is the god who will deliver you from my hands?"

16 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego answered and said to the king, "O Nebuchadnezzar, we have no need to answer you in this matter. 17 If that is the case, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and He will deliver us from your hand, O king. 18 But if not, let it be known to you, O king, that we do not serve your gods, nor will we worship the gold image which you have set up."

Granted we do not worship the State, at least not knowingly. But if the state passes a law which some disagree with, the answer is not simply for them to leave. The answer is the right to obey the God of your choice. Some laws and some state-sanctioned ideologies need to be challenged. I'm sure atheists feel the same way about Christian Nationalism as (some) believers feel about a secular humanist state.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : fixed a few things


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Tangle, posted 07-01-2017 3:35 AM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
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