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Author Topic:   Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 541 of 1311 (812868)
06-20-2017 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 528 by Taq
06-19-2017 12:19 PM


Re: The Nested Hierarchy
Taq writes:
Creationists just can't seem to grasp the simple concept that they need positive evidence that God did create something.
Creationists believe that such evidence exists. I didn't see how the four faces on Mount Rushmore were brought into existence, but I can be secure in my deduction that humans must have done it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 528 by Taq, posted 06-19-2017 12:19 PM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 553 by Pressie, posted 06-21-2017 7:42 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 542 of 1311 (812869)
06-20-2017 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 535 by dwise1
06-19-2017 11:16 PM


Re: maybe we should cholera a new vaccine ...
I didn't say Talk Origins is an atheist web site; it is devoted to promoting the science of evolution, which I interpret as atheist theology. If Talk Origins mentioned somewhere that it is devoted to promoting atheism, then I would say it is an atheist site. Talk Origins presents itself as philosophically neutral, but I'll bet it is run almost-exclusively by atheists.
BioLogos, on the other hand, endorses evolution, but also states that it endorses Christianity. So BioLogos is not philosophically neutral; it's a Christian web site (albeit, in error).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 535 by dwise1, posted 06-19-2017 11:16 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 550 by dwise1, posted 06-20-2017 11:56 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 555 by JonF, posted 06-21-2017 8:19 AM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 543 of 1311 (812870)
06-20-2017 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 530 by Taq
06-19-2017 12:22 PM


Re: The Nested Hierarchy
Taq writes:
You have yet to show that evolution requires an increase in genetic information.
For example, compare the human and chimp genomes. Can you show us how those genomes differ in information content? Probably not, right?
Right.
But since a human is more functionally complex than a chimp, it stands to reason that building a human would require more genetic information that building a chimp.
Think of the instruction manual to build a mouse trap verses the instruction manual to build a car. Which instruction manual would contain more information?
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 530 by Taq, posted 06-19-2017 12:22 PM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 544 by Coyote, posted 06-20-2017 9:50 PM Dredge has replied
 Message 551 by dwise1, posted 06-21-2017 12:13 AM Dredge has replied
 Message 554 by Pressie, posted 06-21-2017 7:47 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 544 of 1311 (812871)
06-20-2017 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 543 by Dredge
06-20-2017 9:40 PM


Re: The Nested Hierarchy
But since a human is more functionally complex than a chimp, it stands to reason that building a human would require more genetic information that building a chimp.
But chimps can do a lot of things humans can't, so there is more "genetic information" around there somewhere to account for those functions.
Your job is to quantify "genetic information" in some manner that accounts for both differences and similarities, and produces a reliable total that can be cross-compared.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 543 by Dredge, posted 06-20-2017 9:40 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 548 by Dredge, posted 06-20-2017 10:28 PM Coyote has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 545 of 1311 (812872)
06-20-2017 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 537 by Tangle
06-20-2017 3:37 AM


Re: The Nested Hierarchy
Tangle writes:
So you believe all that nonsense but reject science? What kind of lunacy is that?
I don't recall rejecting science. I love science!
Transubstantiation - the belief that bread and wine are changed into flesh and blood; not figuratively but quite literally, by a chap in a funny hat lifting it above his head.
Really?
It's called faith. I have it and you don't. "Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you have no life in you." - John 6:53.
And there's an old saying: Truth is stranger than fiction.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 537 by Tangle, posted 06-20-2017 3:37 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 552 by Tangle, posted 06-21-2017 3:31 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 546 of 1311 (812874)
06-20-2017 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 539 by Taq
06-20-2017 10:48 AM


Re: maybe we should cholera a new vaccine ...
Taq writes:
How can you say they are wrong when you don't even understand the most basic science that undergirds the theory of evolution?
I do understand the basics. I don't have to have a doctorate in mathematics to know that 1+1 don't add up to 3. Plus there is my intuition for smelling b.s.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 539 by Taq, posted 06-20-2017 10:48 AM Taq has not replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 547 of 1311 (812875)
06-20-2017 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 540 by ringo
06-20-2017 11:41 AM


Re: maybe we should cholera a new vaccine ...
Ringo writes:
every Christian who knows anything about evolution accepts it. Why don't you try to figure out why YOU'RE wrong?
Consensus is not an infallible guide to truth. Do you (think) I might be retarded?
Nevertheless, the Holy Spirit won't allow me to accept evolution. "What harmony is there between Christ and Belial?" - 2Corinthians 6:15
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 540 by ringo, posted 06-20-2017 11:41 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 559 by ringo, posted 06-21-2017 3:26 PM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 548 of 1311 (812876)
06-20-2017 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 544 by Coyote
06-20-2017 9:50 PM


Re: The Nested Hierarchy
Coyote writes:
But chimps can do a lot of things humans can't, so there is more "genetic information" around there somewhere to account for those functions.
You're probably thinking of space shuttles and the Large Hadron Collider. No, I think you'll find that humans built those machines, not chimps.
What can chimps do that humans can't? My fragile, egg-shell mind can't think of anything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 544 by Coyote, posted 06-20-2017 9:50 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 549 by Coyote, posted 06-20-2017 10:39 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 549 of 1311 (812877)
06-20-2017 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 548 by Dredge
06-20-2017 10:28 PM


Re: The Nested Hierarchy
What can chimps do that humans can't? My fragile, egg-shell mind can't think of anything.
Short term memory:
Chimps Have Better Short-term Memory Than Humans | Live Science
Strategic reasoning:
Chimps Are Better at Strategic Reasoning Than Humans Are
Strength and speed:
Chimpanzees vs. Humans: Sizing Up Their Strength - ABC News

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 548 by Dredge, posted 06-20-2017 10:28 PM Dredge has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 550 of 1311 (812880)
06-20-2017 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 542 by Dredge
06-20-2017 9:31 PM


Re: maybe we should cholera a new vaccine ...
I didn't say Talk Origins is an atheist web site; ...
Sorry, but your own words contradict that claim; again:
In Message 483:
CRR writes:
Ah, the ever unreliable Talk Origins. I wouldn't worry about anything from that discredited atheist web site.
You replied to him in Message 487:
Dredge writes:
Talk Origins = Talk Atheist Theology = Talk Satanic Fairy Tale
So then, yes you did call it "atheist" and then upped the ante with "Satanic". That is despite the fact that CRR said it first, because you were agreeing with him and went on to elaborate further.
Then in Message 532 you elaborated further:
Dredge writes:
Evolution is an atheist invention, so any site dedicated to evolution is likely to be dominated by atheists.
That begged the question of why you thought that. I think we both know that you got that from your creationist sources that are lying to you. However, you must have gone through some kind of reasoning it out to come to accept that. So I asked for that reasoning, but instead you beg yet another question:
... it is devoted to promoting the science of evolution, which I interpret as atheist theology.
"atheist theology"? Evolution, which you yourself identify as being science, is not a theology. While some people may choose to use it (or even their misconceptions about it just as you appear to be doing) in their theology, that does not make evolution itself a theology. As you yourself said, it is science.
Please explain what you are talking about and present your reasoning that led you to that conclusion. It may help if you recognize the difference between the science of evolution and creationists' "evolution model" -- the two couldn't be more dissimilar.
I suppose that you believe that evolution and creation are in conflict. In reality, there is nothing about the science of evolution which contradicts the idea of Divine Creation. It is only when you choose to misconstrue both evolution and creation that you end up creating conflict where none should exist.
So BioLogos is not philosophically neutral; it's a Christian web site (albeit, in error).
Eye, meet beam.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 542 by Dredge, posted 06-20-2017 9:31 PM Dredge has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 551 of 1311 (812882)
06-21-2017 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 543 by Dredge
06-20-2017 9:40 PM


Re: The Nested Hierarchy
Right.
But since a human is more functionally complex than a chimp, it stands to reason that building a human would require more genetic information that building a chimp.
Try this line of reasoning. What do the other members of Hominidae have that humans do not have? Such as physical characteristics.
Such as that massive jaw. Our jaws are puny in comparison. Where else in Hominidae do we see puny jaws and flat faces such as our own? In the infants and young of the other members of Hominidae. As they mature, their genes for that jaw are expressed. Not so in humans. Our jaws remain puny and our faces remain flat, like an infant ape's. We have lost something there, either the genes for developing a mature ape jaw and face or the triggers to express those mature traits.
So then wouldn't you say that in respect to that trait, the chimp genome is more complex than the human one? How many more traits are like that?
OBTW, how intelligent are the other Hominidae? I trust that you have heard of Hanabiko, "fireworks girl" (more literally, "flower fire girl"). She's better known as Koko. Since she has learned sign language, they have been able to administer intelligence tests to her. The results vary from an IQ of 80 to an IQ of 90. The lower score is attributed to cultural bias, or rather species bias -- when given options of where to go when it starts raining, she chose the tree instead of the house.
So then, really, how different are we and in what ways? I think that your approach to that question may be a little too facile.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 543 by Dredge, posted 06-20-2017 9:40 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 591 by Dredge, posted 06-23-2017 11:50 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 552 of 1311 (812891)
06-21-2017 3:31 AM
Reply to: Message 545 by Dredge
06-20-2017 10:00 PM


Re: The Nested Hierarchy
Dredge writes:
I don't recall rejecting science. I love science!
You're very confused aren't you? You reject evolution; evolution is science. You tell us that you don't know how old the earth is; science does. You say that the bread and wine are changed every day by priests into real flesh and real blood - literally; science says that they are not.
You reject science when it contradicts your beliefs, that's rejecting science.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 545 by Dredge, posted 06-20-2017 10:00 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 553 of 1311 (812916)
06-21-2017 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 541 by Dredge
06-20-2017 9:15 PM


Re: The Nested Hierarchy
Dredge writes:
Creationists believe that such evidence exists. I didn't see how the four faces on Mount Rushmore were brought into existence, but I can be secure in my deduction that humans must have done it.
I don't believe that Spooks did it. Just naturally occurring humans. No Spooks involved. That's my deduction.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 541 by Dredge, posted 06-20-2017 9:15 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 554 of 1311 (812918)
06-21-2017 7:47 AM
Reply to: Message 543 by Dredge
06-20-2017 9:40 PM


Re: The Nested Hierarchy
Dredge writes:
But since a human is more functionally complex than a chimp....
I disagree. A Chimp is far more functionally complex than a human.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 543 by Dredge, posted 06-20-2017 9:40 PM Dredge has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 555 of 1311 (812922)
06-21-2017 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 542 by Dredge
06-20-2017 9:31 PM


Re: maybe we should cholera a new vaccine ...
I didn't say Talk Origins is an atheist web site
quote:
I wouldn't worry about anything from that discredited atheist web site.
Your claims are recorded. Don't lie about them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 542 by Dredge, posted 06-20-2017 9:31 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 592 by Dredge, posted 06-24-2017 12:01 AM JonF has not replied

  
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