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Author Topic:   Trilobites, Mountains and Marine Deposits - Evidence of a flood?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 501 of 519 (813094)
06-23-2017 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 499 by edge
06-22-2017 10:47 PM


No reason to impute enormous time to that diagram
First, notice the rise of the basement rocks going from west (left) to east (right). This reflects going from the ocean environment up onto the craton or higher elevation. This is probably the source of the 'hump' or 'bulge' that some have referred to earlier on the true flood history thread. It is basically a rising landscape.
Well, it's not the source. The cross section shows a rounded hill that goes up one side and more gradually down the other; it rises up over the Great Unconformity as shown on the section in such a way as to definitely imply that whatever pushed up the GU also pushed up the whole stack of strata into which the Grand Canyon is cut.
The most important part here is the occurrence of two species of trilobite. The lower one (older and red) is Olenellus in the early Cambrian; while the second one is Glossopleura (younger and blue) of mid-Cambrian age. This is a very important diagram because it shows how sedimentary formations are time-transgressive.
But what is the evidence that the lower trilobite is older than the higher one? Just the usual assumption about the age of the rocks? Otherwise there is no reason to think of the different trilobites that climb the entire Geological Column as being progressively younger: If they were all contemporaries that were buried by the Flood, which of course they were, then they would have been related to each other more like cousins, and there would be no reason to assume those lower on the ladder were older than those higher. (One thing that usually escapes discussion, I've noticed, is the actual location of the various fossils found in the strata. The usual illustrations make it look like they are found directly above one another, all of course neatly arranged by their particular morphology, but isn't it more likely they are found scattered throughout the world or at least a very large geographic area?)
\ The Tapeats Sandstone is actually older in the west than the east. This may seem odd to many, but it makes sense if you look at it from the standpoint of Walther's Law. The ocean is encroaching from the west.
Yes, that would make sense if the Geological Time Scale was true, but of course it isn't. The time scale model requires that the deposition be slow, but if the model is wrong there is no reason to assume it was slow.
And you go on to elaborate the usual model:
And the key point for this discussion is that it is doing so gradually. In other words, it takes time, not only for the trilobite species to evolve but also for a number of fluctuations during the rise in sea level (see the comment with blue background).
The comment about staggered facies? Not sure why that requires huge amounts of time, but neither does anything else in the scenario. Certainly the trilobites need no time to "evolve" if they are all contemporaneous relatives of each other.
I'm sure that this all supports Faith's scenario, somehow.
Well at least there's nothing in it that contradicts it.
e explanatory powers of this empirical observation by McKee in 1945 are very powerful.
First, as usual I have a lot of trouble looking at the bright illustration for long so I'm afraid I'm getting only a rough idea of it, but I really don't see anything in the observations laid out there that's a problem for the Flood. Of course the standard time line that is assumed is a problem but there's nothing in the illustration itself that requires that time line.
Find more of the original work here:
Cambrian History of the Grand Canyon Region - Edwin Dinwiddie McKee, Charles Elmer Resser - Google Books...
I don't know if this helps Faith see the actual effects of Walther's Law or why it would take time to accomplish this set of data, but perhaps it helps to clear up what a stratum is and how it relates to times and time periods.
Sometimes I almost wish I could see things your way just so we wouldn't always be in a fight to the death, but I really just don't. I don't see anything in that illustration that requires the standard time line.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 499 by edge, posted 06-22-2017 10:47 PM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 502 by RAZD, posted 06-23-2017 8:28 AM Faith has replied
 Message 505 by edge, posted 06-23-2017 6:17 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 503 of 519 (813107)
06-23-2017 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 502 by RAZD
06-23-2017 8:28 AM


Re: No reason to admit error ...
That reminds me, I did not say horseshoe crabs were the same species as trilobites, I said they look similar, that's all. See Message 484 where I say
Horseshoe crabs, some of them anyway, do look quite a bit like trilobites.
There's another post where I emphasize that all the trilobites are trilobites, which perhaps you misread as including horseshoe crabs?
ABE And of course there is no error in what I said, there's nothing in that illustration that's incompatible with the Flood.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 502 by RAZD, posted 06-23-2017 8:28 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 506 of 519 (813179)
06-24-2017 6:11 AM
Reply to: Message 505 by edge
06-23-2017 6:17 PM


Re: No reason to impute enormous time to that diagram
That's the whole point. They are not scattered randomly all over the world.
Perhaps you misunderstood. I didn't mean individual trilobites, I meant species as a group, not found close to each other.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 505 by edge, posted 06-23-2017 6:17 PM edge has not replied

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 Message 507 by RAZD, posted 06-24-2017 8:29 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 508 of 519 (813191)
06-24-2017 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 507 by RAZD
06-24-2017 8:29 AM


Re: Reality is the earth is old, very very old
THE POINT IS that if the different species of trilobites are found at large distances from each other that would fit with the Flood scenario.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 507 by RAZD, posted 06-24-2017 8:29 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 509 by JonF, posted 06-24-2017 9:43 AM Faith has replied
 Message 512 by RAZD, posted 06-24-2017 11:56 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 510 of 519 (813199)
06-24-2017 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 509 by JonF
06-24-2017 9:43 AM


Re: Reality is the earth is old, very very old
Actually, no, that has NOT been shown. The Time Scale illustrations make them look to be in close proximity but that is just an illusion. You need to supply the information of where the fossils of each species have been found.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 509 by JonF, posted 06-24-2017 9:43 AM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 511 by JonF, posted 06-24-2017 10:51 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 513 by edge, posted 06-25-2017 10:22 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 514 of 519 (813355)
06-26-2017 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 512 by RAZD
06-24-2017 11:56 AM


Re: Reality is the earth is old, very very old
Different species of trilobites are found in the same digs, but at different elevations
All I wanted to know was how far from each other they are horizontally. Being at different elevations could mean one group directly above another group or it could mean at a different elevation but half a mile away horizontally -- or fifty feet or whatever.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 512 by RAZD, posted 06-24-2017 11:56 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 517 by RAZD, posted 06-27-2017 5:37 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 515 of 519 (813356)
06-26-2017 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 513 by edge
06-25-2017 10:22 AM


Re: Reality is the earth is old, very very old
I have no idea what you are trying to say here. Both Olenellus and Glossopleura are found in the same area (the GC, for instance), but are never found in the same layer, with Olenellus always being lower
But as I just posted to RAZD, how often are they found directly above or below each other as versus some distance away horizontally?
Also although the same species is found in the same layer, how often are they found close together in their group versus scattered in the layer?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 513 by edge, posted 06-25-2017 10:22 AM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 516 by edge, posted 06-26-2017 11:03 PM Faith has not replied

  
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