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Topic: The TRVE history of the Flood...
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 936 of 1352 (810476)
05-30-2017 5:19 AM
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Reply to: Message 935 by PaulK
05-30-2017 5:01 AM
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Re: True history of that shows there was never a Biblical Flood
To get back to the subject.... There's quite a nice paper written by the National Centre for Science Education that puts the case for an extensive regional flood in Mesopotamia when the Tigris and Euphrates burst. Several flood myths occurr in several different religious texts, suggesting that some form of cataclysmic flood did in fact happen.
The Bible (Genesis 6—9) describes a worldwide flood (the Noachian Flood) covering even the highest mountains of the earth and the construction of a huge boat (a rectangular box-like craft) that transported animals, at least two of a kind of all land animals on the earth. The Qur'an (Suras 11 and 71) has almost a duplicate story with a similar huge boat that transported animals and a worldwide flood. In addition two older stories exist in ancient Babylonian epics that describe a huge flood. One is the Epic of Gilgamesh, describing a flood on the Euphrates River (Academy of Ancient Texts nd). The other is the Epic of Atrahasis, which has a huge flood on the Tigris River (Byers nd). In the Epic of Gilgamesh, [Utnapishtim] is warned that a god plans to destroy all humanity and is told to build a ship to save himself, his family, friends, and cattle. In the Epic of Atrahasis, a tribal chief survived with his family by floating in a boat down to the Persian Gulf. After the flood subsided, the chief got out on dry land and erected an altar and sacrificed to a water god so that such a flood would not happen again (Anonymous nd-a). Noah also built an altar when he got off the Ark and offered sacrifices (Genesis 8:20). Because these stories all describe an ancient huge flood in Mesopotamia, it is extremely likely that a huge flood could have occurred. However, the next question is: "Did the Noachian Flood cover the whole earth?" The paper provides evidence for just such a regional flood. It also gives reasons why a global flood is impossible given the evidence we have.
Scientific Evidence Against a Whole-Earth FloodThe Bible says that the rains that created the Noachian Flood lasted for 40 days (Genesis 7:17), that the waters prevailed on the earth for 150 days (Genesis 7:24), and after these 150 days the waters gradually receded from the earth so that by the seventh month and the seventeenth day, Noah's Ark came to rest upon the mountains of Ararat (Genesis 8:4). A year plus two months and twenty-seven days later the earth was dry enough so that Noah,his family, and the load of animals could disembark from the Ark (Genesis 8:14). Because this flood was intended by God to destroy all flesh on earth (Genesis 6:13) and because sedimentary rocks on all continents contain fossils that supposedly represent the "destroyed flesh of all life," it might be thought that the Bible story, describing a wholeearth flood, was true. However, interlayered with these fossil-bearing sedimentary rocks on all continents are layers of evaporite rock salt (sodium chloride), gypsum (hydrated calcium sulfate), anhydrite (calcium sulfate), and various potash and magnesium salts, which are associated with red beds (shales) containing fossilized mud cracks (Schreiber and others 2007). Many of these mineral compounds and red beds have combined thicknesses on different continents of more than one kilometer (~3,281 feet) (Collins 2006). The red beds are red because they contain red hematite (iron oxide) which formed from magnetite grains that were oxidized while the muds were exposed to oxygen in open air. The mud cracks can form only under drying conditions that cause the mud to shrink and form polygonal cracks. The evaporite mineral compounds in the layers are deposited in the correct chemical order predicted by the solubility of each kind of ion in these compounds and whose increasing concentrations during the evaporation of water would cause them to precipitate in a predictable depositional sequence as the water volume decreased. Such evaporite deposits would be expected to occur where a marine sea was once present and to disappear when the sea became completely dry. Therefore, one could expect these evaporites to be at the top of the supposed Noachian Flood deposits when the water supposedly receded and the land dried out, but certainly not in different levels in between older and younger fossiliferous "Flood deposits". We read in the Bible that there is only one time in which the Flood waters are said to recede and leave the earth dry. That is, no multiple worldwide climatic conditions are described in which flooding, then drying to a dry earth, more flooding, more drying to a dry earth, in repeated cycles that occur over and over again in that Flood year. On that basis, it is logical that all the kinds of evaporite deposits and red beds in many different levels in the supposed Noachian Flood deposits could form only in local climates with desert drying-conditions and could not possibly have formed all at the same time a time when a flood covered the whole earth for more than one year (Collins 2006). On that basis, the Noachian Flood story cannot describe a whole-earth flood, but it could only represent a large regional flood. Yes, Noah's Flood May Have Happened, But Not Over the Whole Earth | National Center for Science Education
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 935 by PaulK, posted 05-30-2017 5:01 AM | | PaulK has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 942 by CRR, posted 05-31-2017 6:58 AM | | Tangle has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 997 of 1352 (812002)
06-14-2017 3:00 AM
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Reply to: Message 990 by Faith
06-13-2017 9:08 PM
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Re: I've proved it a million times already
Faith writes: I reject it for better evidence, that is not the same thing. You can't do that Faith. Well not if you want to appear rational - it's a critical thinking problem. If you see a dead body on the ground beneath a tall building and you recognise him as a chap with mental health problem it might be reasonable to suspect suicide. But if you subsequently find he has a bullet hole in his head you don't just stick to your original theory because you think it's 'better evidence'. You must examine all the alternative scenarios, if you don't you run the risk of forming the wrong conclusion. Dating and sorting evidence are two pieces of fatal evidence to a young earth hypothesis, they can't simply be ignored because you feel you have better evidence of something else, it's necessary for you to show why they're wrong. If you can't, at the very best you can tell yourself that you have an open verdict. You should also ask yourself why only people with a belief system like yours hold the YEC belief. Why can't you find an agnostic YEC scientist? The answer is because belief in a young earth derives from faith not science. It can't stand on its own evidence.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 990 by Faith, posted 06-13-2017 9:08 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 999 by Faith, posted 06-14-2017 10:10 AM | | Tangle has replied | | | Message 1008 by Stile, posted 06-14-2017 12:27 PM | | Tangle has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 1001 of 1352 (812017)
06-14-2017 10:22 AM
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Reply to: Message 999 by Faith
06-14-2017 10:10 AM
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Re: I've proved it a million times already
Faith writes: The point is that there is no way to tell if the past was the same as the present, but a cross section can show that the strata were all laid down before tectonic disturbance occurred. The working hypothesis is that in the past the basic physical laws were the same as today; trees grew at the same annual rate, corals grew at the same rate, tides came in and out twice per day, winter came once per year and radioactive decay was the same as the present. You have absolutely no evidence indicating any different do you? And science has stacks of evidence saying that the period covered by your flood - which is very recent - is no different than today. Mountains of it, and it all coincides - it's this co-incidence that kills you, you can't escape it. You must address it, if you can't or won't your case is lost.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 999 by Faith, posted 06-14-2017 10:10 AM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1004 by Faith, posted 06-14-2017 11:15 AM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 1003 of 1352 (812019)
06-14-2017 10:47 AM
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Reply to: Message 1000 by RAZD
06-14-2017 10:21 AM
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Re: I've proved it a million times already
Have you ever tried to match ice cores to your consilience data? There's quite a good article here - by a theologian of all people. http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2003/PSCF12-03Seely.pdf Faith - just the modern ice core data is enough to sink your boat with all hands and hooves. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1000 by RAZD, posted 06-14-2017 10:21 AM | | RAZD has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1009 by RAZD, posted 06-14-2017 2:04 PM | | Tangle has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 1006 of 1352 (812029)
06-14-2017 11:32 AM
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Reply to: Message 1004 by Faith
06-14-2017 11:15 AM
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Re: I've proved it a million times already
Faith writes: The "working hypothesis" is known as Uniformitarianism and since we know things were very very different before the Flood, immensely more favorable to growing things, we ain't buying it. We know you're not buying it, we're not asking you to buy it, we're asking you to show how the evidence shown to you of trees, corals, ice cores, radioactivity, sorted fossils and sorted rock all showing an old earth is wrong. You can't just say that because of some belief you have that it's not real evidence or even that you think some other piece of evidence supports your belief, you need to properly address the hard evidence we're presenting you.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1004 by Faith, posted 06-14-2017 11:15 AM | | Faith has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 1170 of 1352 (813151)
06-23-2017 4:41 PM
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Reply to: Message 1166 by ICANT
06-23-2017 3:48 PM
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Re: Ducking, dodging and weaving (same as always)
ICANT writes: As I mentioned to edge there is lots of water underground ,that has been found besides the ground water that migrates to the aquifer. The 'oceans' underground are not in a free flowing state, the water is fused into rock 400 miles deep. Feel free to invoke a miracle.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1166 by ICANT, posted 06-23-2017 3:48 PM | | ICANT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1174 by ICANT, posted 06-23-2017 7:43 PM | | Tangle has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 1172 of 1352 (813153)
06-23-2017 6:05 PM
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Reply to: Message 1171 by ICANT
06-23-2017 5:38 PM
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Re: Flood waters receeded into depths
ICANT writes: What if you had a single land mass that was at 4' above sea level at it highest point, surrounded by water and that water began to rise like it does at the Bay of Fundy. Except coming from all direction of the land mass. How much damage would be done to the land mass? And I guess the Mountains of Ararat (5,137m) where pushed up quietly during the rising tide?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1171 by ICANT, posted 06-23-2017 5:38 PM | | ICANT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1175 by ICANT, posted 06-23-2017 7:51 PM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 1181 of 1352 (813174)
06-24-2017 2:48 AM
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Reply to: Message 1175 by ICANT
06-23-2017 7:51 PM
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Re: Flood waters receeded into depths
ICANT writes: As the single land mass would have no mountains as the earth had not been divided at that point. That happened at least 109 years after the flood as the earth was divided in the days of Peleg. Pardon my confusion but....
quote:
and in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat.
Genesis 8:4
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1175 by ICANT, posted 06-23-2017 7:51 PM | | ICANT has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 1189 of 1352 (813314)
06-26-2017 7:16 AM
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Reply to: Message 1187 by CRR
06-26-2017 5:51 AM
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Re: how much water?
The thing is, had the bible not been written, the geology, the fossils, taxonomy, the genetics and everything else would look exactly the same and you'd be coming to exactly the same conclusions as millions of scientists have come to over the last few hundred years. The only reason you're forced to invent biblical happenings and attempt to force them into modern science's understandings is because you need to believe in an iron age myth. It's truly bizarre - it's bad science and it's bad biblically. Every new scientific advancement that touches on your strange literalist belief has to be challenged and force fitted into the biblical paradigm - even if you have to make stuff up - stuff thta's not in the bible - to do it. But it can't be done, it doesn't fit and you make yourself look stupid for trying. How come your critical thinking fails you only when a fact contradicts the bible? Can you explain that?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1187 by CRR, posted 06-26-2017 5:51 AM | | CRR has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1195 by ICANT, posted 06-27-2017 4:18 AM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 1198 of 1352 (813385)
06-27-2017 4:46 AM
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Reply to: Message 1195 by ICANT
06-27-2017 4:18 AM
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Re: how much water?
ICANT writes: Now a God that could create this universe and everything in it would have no problem with a little flood to cover the land mass of the earth. He had already covered it one time probably trillions of years ago as we count time. Sure, fictional gods can do anything at all. But your arguments use naturalistic solutions until they fail, then you invoke the miracle. It always puzzles me why you don't call the whole thing miraculous and have done with it. Why not live your beliefs fully? But you failed to answer my question, perhaps you could do it now?
quote:
ICANT writes:
As the single land mass would have no mountains as the earth had not been divided at that point. That happened at least 109 years after the flood as the earth was divided in the days of Peleg. Pardon my confusion but.... quote:
and in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat. Genesis 8:4
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1195 by ICANT, posted 06-27-2017 4:18 AM | | ICANT has seen this message but not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 1250 of 1352 (813720)
06-30-2017 7:30 AM
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Reply to: Message 1248 by CRR
06-30-2017 4:07 AM
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Re: Post Flood Ice Age
quote:
Michael has a Masters Science degree in Atmospheric Science from the University of Washington and is now retired after working as a meteorologist with the US National Weather Service for 30 years. He has researched and speaks on the compelling evidence for Noah’s Flood and the Ice Age that followed, and how the incredible wooly mammoth connects to biblical history. Michael has published many papers in his field in widely recognised journals and has written An Ice Age Caused by the Genesis Flood, Ancient Ice Ages or Gigantic Submarine Landslides?, The Missoula Flood Controversy and the Genesis Flood and The Frozen Record. He is also author of Frozen in Time, The Weather Book and Life in the Great Ice Age. He serves on the board of the Creation Research Society, USA and lives in Montana.
Are you ever going to bring us a respected scientist in a relevant field that is not also a fundy creationist?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1248 by CRR, posted 06-30-2017 4:07 AM | | CRR has not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 1273 of 1352 (814364)
07-08-2017 5:22 AM
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Reply to: Message 1271 by CRR
07-08-2017 4:34 AM
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Re: Ice Cores.
Ffs CRR - it's a PRATT
quote:
Claim CD410: Ice cores are claimed to have as many as 135,000 annual layers. Yet airplanes of the Lost Squadron were buried under 263 feet of ice in forty-eight years, or about 5.5 feet per year. This contradicts the presumption that the wafer-thin layers in the ice cores could be annual layers.
Source: Vardiman, Larry. 1992. Ice cores and the age of the earth. Impact 226 (Apr.). The Institute for Creation Research
Response: Ice layers are counted by different methods (mainly, visible layers of hoar frost, visible dust layers, and layers of differing electrical conductivity) which have nothing to do with thickness. These methods corroborate each other and match with other independently determined dates (Seely 2003). The airplanes landed near the shore of Greenland, where snow accumulation is rapid, at about 2 m per year. Allowing for some compaction due to the weight of the snow, that accounts for the depth of snow under which they are buried. The planes are also on an active glacier and have moved about 2 km since landing. Ice core dating takes place on stable ice fields, not active glaciers. The interior of Greenland, where ice cores were taken, receives much less snow. In Antarctica, where ice cores dating back more than 100,000 years have been collected, the rate of snow accumulation is much less still. A report of "many hundreds" of layers in the ice above the Lost Squadron may also be explained by the airplanes' location on Greenland. That location is relatively warm because it is low and more southerly; its surface gets repeatedly melted during the summer, creating multiple melt layers per year. At the site of the GISP2 ice core, melting occurs only about once every couple centuries. Melt layers are easily distinguished in ice cores. The more than 100,000 layers in ice cores are definitely not melt layers (Seely 2003).
Links: Kuechmann, F. C., 2000. Creationist comedy. cretin comedy
References: Seely, Paul H. 2003. The GISP2 ice core: Ultimate proof that Noah's flood was not global. Perspectives on Science and Christian Faith 55(4): 252-260. http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2003/PSCF12-03Seely.pdf
Further Reading: Seely, Paul H. 2003. The GISP2 ice core: Ultimate proof that Noah's flood was not global. Perspectives on Science and Christian Faith 55(4): 252-260. http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2003/PSCF12-03Seely.pdf Brinkman, Matt, 1995. Ice core dating. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/icecores.html
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1271 by CRR, posted 07-08-2017 4:34 AM | | CRR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1274 by CRR, posted 07-08-2017 6:25 AM | | Tangle has replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.8
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Message 1275 of 1352 (814366)
07-08-2017 6:34 AM
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Reply to: Message 1274 by CRR
07-08-2017 6:25 AM
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Re: Ice Cores.
CRR writes: You obviously didn't read the second paragraph where I mentioned the much higher rate of snowfall in the area where the lost squadron was found. Oh I certainly did. I've noticed you pull this trick several times now. You play back a pile of crap you've read on the creation web site that we've all seen a million times and add in a tiny part of the rebuttal to appear fair. In fact the full rebuttal tells you that you shouldn't be churning out this crap at all - it's all proven false. Is this all you've got? Crap from creationist web sites? Where's the real science?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1274 by CRR, posted 07-08-2017 6:25 AM | | CRR has not replied |
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