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Author Topic:   How do you define the Theory of Evolution?
Tangle
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Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 16 of 93 (811878)
06-13-2017 3:51 AM


It's interesting watching the creationists wriggle. Their arguments have had to change (evolve) over time as discoveries in science made it impossible to support them. The age of the earth is one such seismic change but here we have another.
Until Darwin came along the predominent Christian belief was the fixity of species; they were said to be immutable, they could not change. They were put here by God as we see them now. Praise be! That idea had to change because we discovered more and more species and they all had to fit onto that mythological boat. Darwin came along just in time showing that species did actually change and now immutability of species has been totally abandoned by believers. It's even called unbiblical these days, despite being a firm Christian belief for centuries.
But by allowing species to change they opened the gate to evolution. So now the great wriggle is to stop evolution at a convenient point - they have to allow change, but not so much change that it can harms creation itself. Hence 'kinds' - an undefinable idea allowing as much or as little change as is necessary for any particular organism just so long as they can be on that boat.
This is tricky. The reason that CRR is being so pedantic about definitional issues of the ToE that no-one in science cares too much about is because he absolutely must find a definition which removes the logical conclusion of common descent. His job here is not to define the Theory of Evolution but to define OUT of the ToE common descent. He now needs to stop evolution at some convenient point for his beliefs to continue make some sort of sense to him despite the accumulation of evidence that they don't and they can't.
Science has forced a change in how believers believe since the enlightenment. Prior to that, the priest stood at the front and told their congregation what to believe and they believed it. Now individuals have to reconcile facts discovered about our world with folk tales and the folk tales can't stand up to it. In American fundamentalism I think we're seeing Christianity's final struggle against rationality.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

  
Tangle
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Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 37 of 93 (812924)
06-21-2017 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by CRR
06-21-2017 8:03 AM


Re: Theory of Evolution
CRR writes:
Note Darwin says "into a few forms or into one". Earlier in the book he makes it clear that he favours "one".
Darwin, 1859 writes:
"Therefore I should infer from analogy that probably all the organic beings which have ever lived on this earth have descended from some one primordial form, into which life was first breathed
You're a weird crew you creationists. Darwin's work is for science historians and general interest - it's not the bloody bible and it's not modern science. It doesn't matter what Darwin said, he's not Moses. He happened to be proven right on pretty much everything but it wouldn't matter if he wasn't - we'd be using our current understanding, not his.
LUCA may be the single source of all life or it may not be. Darwin was correct to say 'probably'.
As far as I'm aware, this is science's current view.
quote:
The most commonly accepted location of the root of the tree of life is between a monophyletic domain Bacteria and a clade formed by Archaea and Eukaryota of what is referred to as the "traditional tree of life" based on several molecular studies starting with Carl Woese.[31] A very small minority of studies have concluded differently, namely that the root is in the domain Bacteria, either in the phylum Firmicutes[32] or that the phylum Chloroflexi is basal to a clade with Archaea and Eukaryotes and the rest of Bacteria as proposed by Thomas Cavalier-Smith.[33]

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by CRR, posted 06-21-2017 8:03 AM CRR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by CRR, posted 06-21-2017 6:46 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(3)
Message 39 of 93 (812929)
06-21-2017 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by RAZD
06-21-2017 9:37 AM


Re: Theory of Evolution
Common descent is a conclusion/prediction of the ToE, it's not the ToE itself.
But he's been told this before - it doesn't make any difference.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by RAZD, posted 06-21-2017 9:37 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 41 of 93 (812935)
06-21-2017 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by CRR
06-21-2017 10:10 AM


Re: Evolution: The WORD vs the THEORY
CRR writes:
So when I proposed this topic I asked for your definition of the Theory of Evolution.
You've had stacks of definitions. Your request for definitions is disingenuous - this is all you're trying to do:
Tangle writes:
But by allowing species to change they [creationist] opened the gate to evolution. So now the great wriggle is to stop evolution at a convenient point - they have to allow change, but not so much change that it can harms creation itself. Hence 'kinds' - an undefinable idea allowing as much or as little change as is necessary for any particular organism just so long as they can be on that boat.
This is tricky. The reason that CRR is being so pedantic about definitional issues of the ToE that no-one in science cares too much about is because he absolutely must find a definition which removes the logical conclusion of common descent. His job here is not to define the Theory of Evolution but to define OUT of the ToE common descent. He now needs to stop evolution at some convenient point for his beliefs to continue make some sort of sense to him despite the accumulation of evidence that they don't and that they can't.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by CRR, posted 06-21-2017 10:10 AM CRR has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 76 of 93 (813721)
06-30-2017 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by RAZD
06-30-2017 7:06 AM


Re: Your Definitions
You'd think that that would be enough but I somehow doubt it.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by RAZD, posted 06-30-2017 7:06 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 80 of 93 (813796)
06-30-2017 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Phat
06-30-2017 2:57 PM


Re: Equating the ToE with Atheism
Phat writes:
I googled a few articles and found this one:
Does Accepting Evolution Require Atheism?
Basically, the answer is not necessarily.
For god's sake Phat, of course it bloody doesn't. Not 'not necessarily', just no. The largest Christian organisation on the planet accepts evolution. It's a tiny and diminishing proportion of Christians that think the way people like Faith do.
You guys live in your own little bubble.
Have you ever travelled outside the US Phat?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Phat, posted 06-30-2017 2:57 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 92 of 93 (814450)
07-10-2017 4:12 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by CRR
07-09-2017 7:32 PM


Re: Agree to not agree?
CRR writes:
So are we all agreed that we can't agree on a single definition for the Theory of Evolution?
Of course we could, pretty much any of the definitions would do - if forced. But why would anyone want or need to, when to do so would remove useful information and the ability of different groups of people to understand it?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by CRR, posted 07-09-2017 7:32 PM CRR has not replied

  
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