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Author | Topic: How do you define the word Evolution? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Dredge writes: Pierre-P. Grasse: "Assuming that the Darwinian hypothesis ... [paleontologists then] interpret fossil data according to it .... The error in their method is obvious." Yikes. I had to look that one up. You quote-mined a guy that died in the 19th century? I'm tempted to say that that's a new low, but I know better. Have you really run out of anything sensible to say?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
CRR writes: Have we actually made much progress in defining the word Evolution? You've been given several perfectly adequate and standard definitions of evolution, what's your problem?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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CRR writes: Precisely the problem! There are multiple definitions and when examined they often refer to different types of "evolution" I'm sure that you as an English speaker are aware that a word can have several meanings, the particular one being obvious in context. No reasonable person confuses the evolution of galaxies when discussing biology. All the biological definitions are the same - just different ways of saying them, some simple, some technical. There's nothing more to add. Common descent is a conclusion/requirement of the ToE and no-one is denying LUCA in some form. You appear to be deliberately misunderstanding some simple ideas for reasons of your own.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Dredge writes: Lenski's E-coli are often cited as an example of evolution, but I've noticed that biologists consider it to be some kind of no-no to cite same as evidence that supports the theory that all life shares a common ancestor. Why? I'll leave Lenski to others. What's so difficult about common descent such that you don't understand it? You have common descent with your parents and they have with theirs way back in time. The ToE predicts that that relationship goes back further to include ape descendents and then further to mammals etc etc. This allows diagrams like the tree of life to be drawn showing how all living organisms are related. No biologists doubts common descent. The only question is whether there was a single universal common ancestor - one single organism that started all life on earth. There's a lot of evidence for this and the alternative idea of multiple origins is less strong. But note that when biologists talk of multiple origins they're not thinking of seperate origins of chimps and men or cats and dogs, they're talking mostly of micro-organisms. And they're not talking about a few tens of thousand of years ago but million or even billions.
quote: Common descent - WikipediaJe suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Je suis Mancunian. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Dredge writes: I don't doubt "common descent" either ... or "evolution". But I don't accept that humans and chimps share a common ancestor. Sort this out for us. How old is the earth? If you deny human and chimp common descent then you DO reject common descent and evolution - so are you able to explain what you mean?
which makes perfect sense if all life was created by the same Creator. And no-one could prove you wrong if you mean that some god thing created a molecule that could copy itself and went on to form all life on earth. But that isn't what you mean is it? Or is it?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Je suis Mancunian. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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CRR writes: OK, so it doesn't have to be one universal common ancestor but that is certainly the prevailing view today, in Darwin's day, and Darwin's preferred option. Congratulations, you finally agree with what everyone has been saying for dozens of posts. It seems a hard thing for creationists to grasp but science does not consider Darwin's views to be sacrosanct; his book is not a holy book to be considered true in all respects and forever. Our understanding of life on earth has evolved beyond Darwin, though his core ideas have proven sound and held good despite 150 years of scientific advancement.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Dredge writes: 1. Humans descending from a microbe is evolution.2. Lenski's E-coli demonstated evolution. There must be a connection between 1 and 2. This is both bad science and bad logic. 1. The ToE leads us to a working hypothesis that all life has one - or possibly more - common ancestors which must have started with some form of replicating molecule. On the way, one of those ancestors may have been an ancient version of what we now call a microbe. A microbe is any organism that requires magnification to be seen by us - it's a general catch-all term, not part of a taxa. 2 The fact that a specific bacterium can evolve the ability to 'eat' citrate does not tell us anything about whether a humans descended from microbes. It's a single piece of evidence that confirms that organisms can change which adds to the mountain of other evidence supporting evolution. What underpins the idea of common descent is the ToE in its entirety with all its collection of supporting facts. How old is the earth? Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Dredge writes: If there is no connection between 1 and 2, then in effect, you are saying evolution is not evidence of evolution. Now that really does sound like both bad science and bad logic. Of course there's a connection between the two, but you're going out of your way to misunderstand what it is. How old is the earth? Why are you ignoring this question?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Dredge writes: You've gone from calling it "bad science and bad logic" to now admitting there is a connection. Interesting. If you remove your default defensive 'nothing shall pass' position and re-read what I said, you might understand the point. At the moment you've got all power committed to your biblical shields.
Somewhere betweem 5778 years and a very long time indeed. Well that explains a lot, you're actually a closet YEC. That's the equivalent of a flat earther.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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CRR writes: Kirk Durston at least tried to provide precise definitions No he didn't, he's just attempted - and singularly failed - to do what you're attempting and also failing to do; define macroevolution and common descent out of evolution for purely religious reasons. It's a hopeless task as there isn't, in fact, any difference between them; macroevolution simple being a consequence of multiple microevolutionary events. You might as well say that adding water in 100ml cups to a 1 litre jar can never fill the jar. Find us some non-creationist scientists and you might get a bit more traction. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
CRR writes: When creationists state that macroevolution does not occur, what are they saying does not occur?Actually I did concede that the Peppered Moth could be an example of macroevolution (without speciation), using Durston's definition, but that it has not been confirmed as such. Speciation could be a micro or a macroevolutionary change depending on what caused it. Totally silly. Both varieties of Peppered moth freely interbreed. There is no process of macroevolution, it's purely a way of describing when an accumulation of evolutionary changes have resulted in non-interbreeding populations. It's irrelevant what caused it. The word macroevolution could be dumped without changing anything in biology - and in my opinion should be.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Faith writes: My definition of the Kind is functional... I keep having to remember what it is that you believe. The earth was made in a single act of creation about 6,000 years ago. It was fully populated with all the organisms we find in the fossil record, plus man and, I'm guessing, all the stuff we have today? Then he floods the earth 4,000 years ago killing pretty much everything. But he takes 2s and 7s of some of the critters and they become the 'kinds' that everything else evolves from? So, for example, he takes two kangaroos and from those two all the marsupials that now exist spring from them? They do it quickly too, because we have records of modern animals being around from way back. So there's enormous genetic diversity in these original kinds - presumably put there by miracle - and a miraculous process to get so much change, so quickly and spread so thickly across the drowned world. So presumably all the species we see alive today are at the end of their capacity to keep evolving?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Faith writes: The enormous diversity in the originals turns out to be easy enough to account for. Yeh, whatever. Is what I wrote roughly what you believe? Have the kinds now run out of diversity and therefore ability to evolve further?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Faith writes: No miracle, just simple elegant design, as explained in the above post. I think we have to regard the act of design and creation as a little miraculous. As would be selecting the marsupial that could evolve in a few generations into all the existing marsupials. Or am I mistaken in imagining that prior to the flood all the stuff that exists today, also existed then? Or was it just a few kinds that existed then - say I kangaroo but no other marsupials?
Some are, some are close, The ones that still have a load of diversity aren't noticeably evolving - that is changing within a few generations into other distinct species. Your wildebeest has remained pretty much the same since records began without splitting off dozens of branches - why would that be? It seems god's work is incomplete. I guess that means that we can relax about the end time prophecies..... Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Faith writes: Who has said there was only one? I'm asking....
If there was only one version of marsupial on the Ark it wouldn't have been a kangaroo. Uhuh? How many? Which?
It had been what? -- 1500 years or so -- since the Creation? That means there had already been a lot of microevolution of all the Kinds. I'd say that was fairly close to the amount of time after the flood before we find written records of modern species. Though of course the situation after creation would have been more conducive than after this flood thing.
Because it exists in huge herds, a million of the black wildebeests. Sounds like god got that one wrong then. If he wanted evolution of wildebeests he needed a different process.
NO idea what you are saying here. Evolution is apparently still happening so god's plan is still unfulfilled.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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