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Author Topic:   Micro v. Macro Creationist Challenge
CRR
Member (Idle past 2243 days)
Posts: 579
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 46 of 252 (813482)
06-28-2017 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Tangle
06-27-2017 4:17 PM


CRR at ~6200 years.
Sometimes I talk about millions or billions of years within the evolutionary frame of reference.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Tangle, posted 06-27-2017 4:17 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 49 by dwise1, posted 06-28-2017 10:26 AM CRR has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 47 of 252 (813489)
06-28-2017 2:18 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by CRR
06-28-2017 12:11 AM


CRR writes:
CRR at ~6200 years.
And there was I thinking you're the sensible one.....that is an untenable position.
Sometimes I talk about millions or billions of years within the evolutionary frame of reference.
Totally disingenuously it turns out.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by CRR, posted 06-28-2017 12:11 AM CRR has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1406 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 48 of 252 (813498)
06-28-2017 6:27 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by CRR
06-28-2017 12:11 AM


CRR at ~6200 years.
And yet you can't show any errors in the tree ring data that shows the earth is at least 10,444 ...
as the last post on the Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1 thread shows.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5931
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 49 of 252 (813529)
06-28-2017 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by CRR
06-28-2017 12:11 AM


CRR at ~6200 years.
Is that just because you believe that your religion requires it? Or do you think that the physical evidence supports it?
Id est, do you hold that religious belief despite the evidence? Or do you claim to hold it because of the evidence?
I have seen many young-earth creationists insist that if their young-earth claims do turn out to be wrong, then they would have to through their Bibles into the dust bin and become atheists. Kind of extreme, but that is literally what a number of them insisted was the case, so I'm not making this up.
What would your reaction be?

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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 50 of 252 (813929)
07-02-2017 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Taq
05-22-2017 12:55 PM


I would say the problem with your, "challenge" is that it is much less of a challenge to take two primates with a very similar body plan and say, "show me how it can't be micro".
That seems conceivable to me at least physically for making a biped from an arboreal ape but how would that justify goo-to-you via the zoo? So then evolution claims more than to have just evolved a primate into a primate doesn't it.
Perhaps conceivable but would those changes really add up to a human? You show a portion of similar code in a gene, but that is as a logical error of taking a portion already similar, very close then saying "now these two small changes, what would prevent them?"
That's a lot easier to do than to compare very dissimilar parts of the genome and then ask the same question. (cherry-picking by picking the similar codes.) Question - how much dissimilar code can you copy for us to look at? (That's the question mikey Holmes is asking!)
So for me I would say that the burden of proof isn't upon me to prove micro evolution is an omniscient designer that can come up with the Bombardier beetle, anemone-dart eating sea slugs, Archer fish or humans. I would say the true burden of proof is upon those saying that micro evolution, given enough time, will lead to man from molecules.
For example if a bacteria becomes resistant, or a fish gets anti-freeze, or a beak is slightly tougher and larger, or a lizard's toe pad slightly differently shaped, does that mean that if we add up those changes they will lead from molecules to man? If they do, you should be able to show a sequential pattern in the micro changes. The micro changes happening today, should give us clues to the direction of the changes in the anatomy that will be new anatomies in the future. I have news for you, the anatomies aren't changing their design significantly. To say "we don't have enough time to see them change" would be to presume they are all on day one of changing. Shouldn't various organisms be at different stages of evolution?
For me that's akin to saying that if we watch a man accelerate when he runs, from 1mph to 3mph then if we had watched him go the full distance of a mile, by this simple micro change in speed, he would end up running at 300mph.
The problem with that reasoning is that on the MACRO level there are changes that don't have to occur on the MICRO level. For example, all of a planes parts individually, can not fly on the micro level. So then does that mean we can conclude that all the parts together on the macro level, will mean a non-flying plane?
In the same way, how does altering the shape of a lizard's toe pad count as part of an anatomical overhaul on the macro level? How does a larger bellows type lung on the micro level, lead to a contraflow lung on the macro level?
On the micro level, there are anatomical designs of phenotype which don't have to be dealt with but on the macro level, those changes in design purportedly evolved from lots of micro.
For me it's reasonable to then say, "then the micro will reveal this macro change" so then show me micro changes which are changing a contraflow lung into a different design of lung, a novel anatomy! The excuse will be; "evolution doesn't have to take a different direction." But then isn't that a tacit admission that micro changes don't have to lead anywhere?
Because there are no designer changes on the anatomical level, occurring like they would be if evolution was true. All you see is insignificant changes which don't effect the design of the anatomy. A variety of bats yes, but can you show me one between quadruped and flier or one between flier and quadruped? No, so that's sufficient to conclude there is no macro evolution happening, IMHO.

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 Message 1 by Taq, posted 05-22-2017 12:55 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by RAZD, posted 07-03-2017 5:39 AM mike the wiz has replied
 Message 54 by Tangle, posted 07-03-2017 6:41 AM mike the wiz has replied
 Message 57 by Pressie, posted 07-03-2017 7:32 AM mike the wiz has replied
 Message 68 by Taq, posted 07-05-2017 11:19 AM mike the wiz has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1406 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 51 of 252 (813955)
07-03-2017 5:39 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by mike the wiz
07-02-2017 12:46 PM


Hi Mike
For me it's reasonable to then say, "then the micro will reveal this macro change" so then show me micro changes which are changing a contraflow lung into a different design of lung, a novel anatomy! The excuse will be; "evolution doesn't have to take a different direction." But then isn't that a tacit admission that micro changes don't have to lead anywhere?
No, Mike, the "excuse" will be that evolution doesn't work that way, it just adapts for fitness with the available traits due to mutations.
But thanks for sharing what you think macroevolution entails.
... I would say the problem with your, "challenge" is that it is much less of a challenge to take two primates with a very similar body plan and say, "show me how it can't be micro". ...
Such as Australopithicus and Chimpanzee?
Have at it.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by mike the wiz, posted 07-02-2017 12:46 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 52 of 252 (813956)
07-03-2017 5:57 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by RAZD
07-03-2017 5:39 AM


Hi RAZD.
RAZD writes:
No, Mike, the "excuse" will be that evolution doesn't work that way, it just adapts for fitness with the available traits due to mutations.
But thanks for sharing what you think macroevolution entails.
Yes but I know how evolution purportedly, "works", in my new topic in the proposed section, I don't score as "ignorant" on those evolution tests, so let's not make it about understanding evolution.
I wasn't making a point about evolution really, I was making a point about anatomy. For example let us say we have a lung of the bellows type like in humans (rather than the contraflow avian lung), can you see that micro evolution might mean that our lungs "evolve" because of selection pressure, for a demand for a better efficiency. A pretend scenario, of course. So I agree a micro evolution might be a larger lung or a slightly different lung but this has no affect on the anatomical changes that would be required to create that type of lung into a contraflow lung.
So then when they say that micro evolution would have made that type of lung evolve into the bird's lung, that WOULD require an anatomical overhaul. As you know a bird's lung with the air sacs, etc, the very different way of breathing, is a totally different system.
Now it's okay to hypothesize that evolution could have done it incrementally but logically to show it is happening incrementally is an entirely different thing. (This is where I say that obviously evolution doesn't require our lung to go from a bellows type to the other type, so as to reveal I am not ignorant of evolution. BUT, if you are claiming micro evolutionary changes basically are macro, then are our lungs or any feature, part of an intermediate transition which involves changing one system into another? If they aren't then all the micro changes like lizard toe pads and tougher beaks, logically AREN'T LEADING to a MACRO change).
RAZD writes:
Such as Australopithicus and Chimpanzee?
I appreciate they are close. I appreciate that to your mind it is plausible that one could evolve into the other. I myself don't believe there is a connection between pithecines and the homo genus. I believe what we see in nature is a smorgasboard of mosaic traits. You might call this an evolutionary, "bush". For me I just think it is design, the best designs being used for certain organisms.
For me it's tautologous that there was always going to be other species we as humans would be "closest" to anatomically. This would still be true if there is no macro evolution, which is why it is tautologous, because mathematically, in a world of millions of species we are bound to be similar in some ways to some others. We are mammals yes, with a skeleton, but there is a reason for that is there not? For example, would we expect a butterfly to have bones?
So all I am saying is that there is an alternative explanation. I appreciate you don't accept that explanation and are thoroughly convinced of evolution, and I appreciate that you expound that viewpoint with intelligence and clarity, and barely a fallacy in any of your arguments, generally speaking!
Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.

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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 53 of 252 (813957)
07-03-2017 6:05 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by RAZD
07-03-2017 5:39 AM


Remember, I was attacking Taq's challenge. He himself hasn't argued the best argument by showing us a tiny portion of similar genome. How many base changes are there between a chimp and a human? It seems he was almost implying it was as simple as just two being needed.
Surely you can see it at least logically fair to do a full comparison? I think therefore his challenge is either mendacious or sloppy thinking.
Edited by mike the wiz, : missing words and spelling errors as usual, I have fast-typing disease.

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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 54 of 252 (813958)
07-03-2017 6:41 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by mike the wiz
07-02-2017 12:46 PM


So what's new here Mike?
So far it's just the same old irreducable complexity stuff - you can't get this lung from that lung..... it's a debunked argument.
I would say the true burden of proof is upon those saying that micro evolution, given enough time, will lead to man from molecules.
About 150 years ago that was the case. However, the concensus has shifted somewhat. You're now with the flat-earth brigade - only fundamental creationists believe that evolution is false so it's up to them to prove it.
The ToE is falsifyable, go falsify it with evidence, not argument, evidence.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by mike the wiz, posted 07-02-2017 12:46 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by mike the wiz, posted 07-03-2017 8:20 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 55 of 252 (813959)
07-03-2017 6:54 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by mike the wiz
07-03-2017 5:57 AM


Mike writes:
For me it's tautologous that there was always going to be other species we as humans would be "closest" to anatomically. This would still be true if there is no macro evolution, which is why it is tautologous, because mathematically, in a world of millions of species we are bound to be similar in some ways to some others. We are mammals yes, with a skeleton, but there is a reason for that is there not? For example, would we expect a butterfly to have bones?
The thing is, creationists tell us that there's something special about people. They're made in god's image, they have souls etc. I understand their disappointment in finding that we're physically almost identical to a chimp and that the soul isn't actually real but that is what you'd expect if evolution was true.
If evolution wasn't true we could find all sorts of things that would surprise us. Just for example, if your god wanted to make us 'special' he could have used silica instead of carbon as H.sapien's base. Or just given us an entirely different genome from anything else on earth. Now that WOULD have made us take notice. There are any number of models that would be better for a designer if evolution wasn't his plan. For a start why introduce sexual reproduction if you didn't want change and variety - cloning is a far better idea. Why allow mutations to change the design?
The 'tautology' you're finding is a result of evolution being accurate.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by mike the wiz, posted 07-03-2017 5:57 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
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Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


(1)
Message 56 of 252 (813961)
07-03-2017 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Tangle
07-03-2017 6:54 AM


Yeah, if humans were special, why weren't they Gold based or Platinum group based or Titanium based or Aluminium based ? Now, that would have been special. Instead, humans are carbon based. Just like the rest of life on earth.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

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Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 57 of 252 (813962)
07-03-2017 7:32 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by mike the wiz
07-02-2017 12:46 PM


mike the wiz writes:
I would say the problem with your, "challenge" is that it is much less of a challenge to take two primates with a very similar body plan and say, "show me how it can't be micro".
Thank you for admitting that humans are Primates.

This message is a reply to:
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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 58 of 252 (813965)
07-03-2017 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Pressie
07-03-2017 7:32 AM


Yes I would categorise primates as mammals with a collar bone, and forward pointing eyes. I don't agree with the classification of humans with apes obviously so I don't refer to apes. Really I only refer to the body plan.
So I don't "admit" to anything consequential. Humans share two main anatomical similarities with apes compared to monkeys and apes which share nine.
Apes and monkeys both have arms longer than legs for brachiation, can't speak have dense body hair, and no nasal spine. Humans are viably fully bipedal, monkeys and apes aren't. Humans have speech, apes and monkeys don't. Humans can understand a concept within a concept, apes and monkeys can't. Etc.. But as a skeletal plan, all are mammals with forward vision and a collar bone. That's about all that's shared.
Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.

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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 59 of 252 (813968)
07-03-2017 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Tangle
07-03-2017 6:54 AM


Tangle writes:
The thing is, creationists tell us that there's something special about people. They're made in god's image, they have souls etc. I understand their disappointment in finding that we're physically almost identical to a chimp and that the soul isn't actually real but that is what you'd expect if evolution was true.
Well, to be honest I don't accept these assertions as true claims. I think it's OVERT that humans stand out as made in God's image. The "special" claim is a term atheists love to hang on to but the main point with the bible is that it says we are made in God's image, and what is God? An intelligent, sentient Creator.
Humans excel in that area. Imagination, creativity, and we have sentience, a full awareness of things such as logic, maths, we can discover science, understand abstract concepts.
I think it's a superficial claim to only compare anatomy or only compare genetics because that presumes that the only difference between chimps and humans are differences in those areas. Nevertheless monkeys and apes share many things that humans don't share with them anyway, we speak, have sentient personas, can think abstractly, are fully bipedal, have the software for speech, don't have dense animal hair, etc....
Tangle writes:
I understand their disappointment in finding that we're physically almost identical to a chimp and that the soul isn't actually real
Well, according to the bible all nephesh organisms are living souls. So really to "find out you don't have a soul" would be to find out you aren't a living being.
So you've taken Hollywood's version of religion which describes a "soul", and applied that to creationists, but informed creationists know that a living soul includes the physical miracle of life. We argue that when the living soul dies the spirit which is supernatural, remains. To say we have "found out" this spirit isn't real, well - no, you have made a statement
based on argumentum ad ignorantiam, but personally I would not expect necessarily to find direct evidence of a supernatural spirit in some natural form after death since the bible doesn't say we linger as a soul with natural residues for science testing.
It seems you are just making assertions and claims here which creationists wouldn't even agree with, which are predicated on things you only half understand. (Half might be a little generous).
Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.
Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.
Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 60 of 252 (813969)
07-03-2017 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Tangle
07-03-2017 6:41 AM


Tangle writes:
About 150 years ago that was the case. However, the concensus has shifted somewhat. You're now with the flat-earth brigade - only fundamental creationists believe that evolution is false so it's up to them to prove it.
The ToE is falsifyable, go falsify it with evidence, not argument, evidence.
Well it's always rhetorical to compare apples to oranges then say apples are the same as oranges.
The only thing we share with "flat earthers" is that we have arguments to the contrary of a popular claim.
It's a generalisation fallacy to say "you're no different from a flat earther". Did you know the members of flat-earth society are evolutionist? At least some of them are.
Tangle writes:
The ToE is falsifyable, go falsify it with evidence, not argument, evidence.
I have. Falsification evidence, using the modus tollens. But there is no point in explaining that because you wouldn't understand what I was talking about and would just argue that I haven't falsified it.
As an exercise in logical debate, the ToE isn't that difficult to refute, what is difficult to really fight is all of the rhetorical devices you use, such as vaguely appealing to consensus. That's argumentum ad verecundiam because science doesn't operate by consensus, nor does it operate from proof, as Popper explained.
So if you say "evolutionary scientists agree" evolution is true, that's a slightly better argument, because the majority of scientists aren't evolutionary biologists. So to appeal to the 70% or whatever it is, of scientists which aren't qualified to judge the matter, is an appeal to authority, so that's 70% of your claim dealt with.
Then we ask, "are those evolutionary biologists experts in critical thinking and logic" because if they aren't it's still an appeal to authority, if they can't assess claims to an expert level.
Thirdly we must ask, is it tautologous that, "all evolutionary scientists accept the ToE". Well to be honest I can't really picture too many passionate creationists being evolutionary biologists, I am going to bet that most people that want to become an evolutionary biologist, are already passionate about science.
If they are passionate about science, does it follow they would want to explain the world using science? Yes. Is the only way to explain life naturall through science, evolution theory? Yes. So what are the chances they would NOT accept the ToE?
Can't say they're too good, so in my book that evolutionists accept evolution, when you strip away the phlegm, just isn't the most convincing argument.

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