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Author | Topic: Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1432 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Today the members of a kind will be a clade rooted on the original created kind, but the original kinds are not rooted in a further common ancestor. Please show me where in the phylogeny of organisms that happened.
Message 632RAZD: As I said before we have names for all breeding populations, and that is so we can discuss them without confusing one with the other.
Actually I have elsewhere shown how we can infer that all cats, from tabby to tiger, are part of the one kind; and this is based on the fact that different species and genera of cats can and do interbreed. Perhaps we are actually on firmer biological ground talking about kinds rather than species. Fat chance. What you are identifying as a "kind" is the Felidae clade:
quote: ... or would that be the Feliformia clade ... And supposedly you make a similar claim for the Canidae clade:
quote: ... or would that be the Caniformia clade? ... or would that be the Carnivora clade? And what do you do about Amphicyonidae ("bear-dogs") and Hemicyoninae ("dog-bears")? Inquiring minds want to know. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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JonF Member (Idle past 195 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
What is it with creationists and all/some/none?
I think that is a logic fail. Just what are you trying to say there?The fact that in some cases we cannot identify a species as new does not mean, as you assumed, that we cannot identify species as new in all cases. Logic fail. You wrote:
Don't. Or can't. Normally both. It doesn't matter, as Darwin - bless him said - 'we know them when we see them.' The vast majority are not contentious - elephants and daphnia are different species. Well that's alright then, so long as you don't tie macroevolution to speciation, since if you can't identify if it's a new species you can't say macroevolution has taken place.
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JonF Member (Idle past 195 days) Posts: 6174 Joined: |
What is a kind and how do we find them? You left out the critical part specifying "how do we find them". What science needs is an operational definition. Simply put, given two arbitrarily chosen species A and B, what procedure do we follow to tell if they are the same kind or different? Referring to information that is both practically and theoretically unavailable may not be part of the definition. E.g. some "original" genetic makeup.
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Taq Member Posts: 10077 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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CRR writes: The biological discipline of systematics was developed to discover natural groupings of organisms, such as species. Systematics demonstrates that all life shares a universal common ancestor. Since you reject this finding, you can't claim that you are using systematics. You still haven't given a single test for determining if two species share a common ancestor. You don't have a test for determining if an allele for a shared gene came from the original kind. Everything you have said is just an assertion without any test for detecting it. Edited by Taq, : No reason given.
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CRR Member (Idle past 2269 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
Er, I tried to say what I said, in simple unambiguous English.
Yeah, sorry JonF. I must have been tired when I read your previous post.
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CRR Member (Idle past 2269 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Surely you can tell me whether Tapirs and Anteaters are of the elephant kind and why?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Taq Member Posts: 10077 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
CRR writes: A baraminology tutorial with examples from the grasses Can you discuss this webpage?
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Taq writes: Can you discuss this webpage? It starts and finishes here: "Because the Bible is the only source for infallible information, studying biblical passages greatly aids the identification and interpretation of baramins"Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Dredge Member (Idle past 101 days) Posts: 2850 From: Australia Joined: |
CRR writes:
To extrapolate from variation in beaks in the same species of Galapagos finches to claiming mice turn into elephants or bears turn into whales is to expose the edge of sanity. It's takes a special talent to believe such voodoo science. Humans have been selectively breeding animals for thousands of years and they have discovered that they always produce offspring within the same kind. Despite the huge variation in domestic dogs they are all the same species. To cite this as evidence for evolution is to expose the edge of evolution. Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.
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Dredge Member (Idle past 101 days) Posts: 2850 From: Australia Joined: |
Tangle writes:
In any field of true science, definitions are rightly considered important. But evolutionary biology is different - in this world of fake science, ambiguity comes in handy. For example, Darwinists can call natural selection "evolution" and still keep a straight face; Tangle will stubbornly believe the cult line that there are practical uses for "evolution" despite the fact that no practical uses for the theory of common descent exist.
Are you going to fart around attempting to define your way out of every issue you have to confront because of your religious beliefs or are you going to actually deal with real stuff in the real world? Is this obsession with definitions all you've got?
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Dredge writes: To extrapolate from variation in beaks in the same species of Galapagos finches to claiming mice turn into elephants or bears turn into whales is to expose the edge of sanity. I'm sure you've been told that this is NOT evolution many times before. To keep repeating an error having been corrected on it is lying. When you do it you expose yourself as both ignorant and dishonest.
It's takes a special talent to believe such voodoo science.
Yes it does, the sort of voodoo that believes in talking snakes, resurrections, water into wine, demons, cherubim, souls and the everlasting pains of hell.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Dredge writes: For example, Darwinists can call natural selection "evolution" and still keep a straight face; No biologists calls natural selection evolution. None. Stop lying and try to learn what you're objecting to.
Tangle will stubbornly believe the cult line that there are practical uses for "evolution" despite the fact that no practical uses for the theory of common descent exist. Are you drunk?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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CRR Member (Idle past 2269 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
In any field of true science, definitions are rightly considered important. But evolutionary biology is different ...
Well so far we have found that the terms evolution, theory of evolution, species, kinds, microevolution, and macroevolution, can all be clearly defined; just not in a way that everyone agrees with. Definitions seem to be remarkably idiosyncratic. This is why evo-biologists can get excited by Trinidad Guppies and Galapagos Finches and say the trivial changes observed are evolution in action.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
CRR writes: Well so far we have found that the terms evolution, theory of evolution, species, kinds, microevolution, and macroevolution, can all be clearly defined; just not in a way that everyone agrees with. Well not in a way that people that think the earth is 6,000 years old agree with anyway - how could that possibly happen? And as for 'kinds', you can't even tell me whether Tapirs and Anteaters are of the elephant 'kind' or not and how the decision would be made. Why is that?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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