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Author Topic:   Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
CRR
Member (Idle past 2242 days)
Posts: 579
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 661 of 1311 (814070)
07-04-2017 3:53 AM
Reply to: Message 657 by Tangle
07-04-2017 2:52 AM


Re: A Blast from the Past
Tangle writes:
Dredge writes:
To extrapolate from variation in beaks in the same species of Galapagos finches to claiming mice turn into elephants or bears turn into whales is to expose the edge of sanity.
I'm sure you've been told that this is NOT evolution many times before. To keep repeating an error having been corrected on it is lying. When you do it you expose yourself as both ignorant and dishonest.
Actually that is pretty much a hyperbolic statement of what evolutionists claims.
The variation of beak sizes in Galapagos Finches has been called evolution. Evolutionists do claim that elephants evolved from small mammals, and that whales evolved from land animals. (Darwin suggested bears?)
quote:
It is believed that 50-60 million years ago, mammals approximately the size of current day pigs, were the roots from which the proboscideans evolved from.
Elephant Evolution
It is believed that ~50 million years ago, Pakicetus, a land animal the size of a dog, was the ancestor of whales.
So while it is technically incorrect to refer to mice and bears the intent is correct.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 657 by Tangle, posted 07-04-2017 2:52 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 662 by Tangle, posted 07-04-2017 4:27 AM CRR has not replied
 Message 676 by Taq, posted 07-05-2017 10:48 AM CRR has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 662 of 1311 (814071)
07-04-2017 4:27 AM
Reply to: Message 661 by CRR
07-04-2017 3:53 AM


Re: A Blast from the Past
CRR writes:
Actually that is pretty much a hyperbolic statement of what evolutionists claims.
Actually it's exactly NOT what evolutionists claim, hyberbolic or otherwise. You will find only creationists talk garbage like elephants evolved from mice and whales from bears. Because, you know, bears and mice are modern animals - as modern as people and nothing has descended from them. It's perfect example of creationist's total ignorance of what they're objecting to. They make utter fools of themselves every time they do it. This is not a trivial point.
It is believed that ~50 million years ago, Pakicetus, a land animal the size of a dog, was the ancestor of whales.
Exactly. So no mice, no bears and 50 million years ago.
So while it is technically incorrect to refer to mice and bears the intent is correct.
It's not just technically incorrect it's also deliberatly dishonest an oft repeated gloat exposing an underlying ignorance.
The variation of beak sizes in Galapagos Finches has been called evolution.
That'll be because it IS evolution. The fact that species change their form to fit their environment - and in the case of finches quickly too - is excellent evidence for evolution in action.
Species are not immutable, something your great great grandfather fully believed because he was told this by his priest whilst on his knees before his fiction - if he thought of it at all that is.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 661 by CRR, posted 07-04-2017 3:53 AM CRR has not replied

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 663 of 1311 (814073)
07-04-2017 6:08 AM
Reply to: Message 659 by CRR
07-04-2017 3:33 AM


Re: definitions
Or, maybe it's because the subject itself, life, is a concept very hard to define in one sentence or paragraph? Ever thought of that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 659 by CRR, posted 07-04-2017 3:33 AM CRR has not replied

  
CRR
Member (Idle past 2242 days)
Posts: 579
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 664 of 1311 (814077)
07-04-2017 8:25 AM
Reply to: Message 660 by Tangle
07-04-2017 3:52 AM


Re: definitions
And as for 'kinds', you can't even tell me whether Tapirs and Anteaters are of the elephant 'kind' or not and how the decision would be made. Why is that?
That information was in the linked article. Read it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 660 by Tangle, posted 07-04-2017 3:52 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 665 by Tangle, posted 07-04-2017 8:31 AM CRR has not replied
 Message 666 by JonF, posted 07-04-2017 9:29 AM CRR has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 665 of 1311 (814078)
07-04-2017 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 664 by CRR
07-04-2017 8:25 AM


Re: definitions
CRR writes:
That information was in the linked article. Read it.
That's a cop out. This is a debate site, we don't refer people to other sites to get answers, we explain in our own words what we wish to get across, quoting if necessary and referrencing the place we got the information from forfurther information.
I've asked you three times now to show how those three animals fit in with your definition of kinds and you've ignored me, so I can only assume that you can't answer. Biology is able to answer, why can't you?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 664 by CRR, posted 07-04-2017 8:25 AM CRR has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 666 of 1311 (814085)
07-04-2017 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 664 by CRR
07-04-2017 8:25 AM


Re: definitions
And as for 'kinds', you can't even tell me whether Tapirs and Anteaters are of the elephant 'kind' or not and how the decision would be made. Why is that?
That information was in the linked article. Read it.
I've seen and read that article before.
No operational definition of "kind" there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 664 by CRR, posted 07-04-2017 8:25 AM CRR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 671 by CRR, posted 07-04-2017 10:40 PM JonF has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 667 of 1311 (814102)
07-04-2017 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 659 by CRR
07-04-2017 3:33 AM


Re: definitions
CRR writes:
Definitions seem to be remarkably idiosyncratic.
Welcome to the English language. Yes, definitions can vary according to context. You can use a knife for spreading butter or for open-heart surgery.
That's no excuse for being confused. If you want to discuss any subject intelligently, it's up to YOU to understand the definitions in context. Mocking the definitions just makes you look like a fool.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 659 by CRR, posted 07-04-2017 3:33 AM CRR has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 668 of 1311 (814104)
07-04-2017 1:11 PM


Interesting question...
Its an interesting question--why do creationists so often want to meddle in science and quibble about definitions?
Its certainly not to benefit science.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

Replies to this message:
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 Message 670 by RAZD, posted 07-04-2017 1:31 PM Coyote has not replied
 Message 679 by Dredge, posted 07-06-2017 5:10 AM Coyote has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(3)
Message 669 of 1311 (814105)
07-04-2017 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 668 by Coyote
07-04-2017 1:11 PM


Re: Interesting question...
Coyote writes:
Its an interesting question--why do creationists so often want to meddle in science and quibble about definitions?
They're trying to find semantic loopholes. (And it's easier than doing actual science.)

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 668 by Coyote, posted 07-04-2017 1:11 PM Coyote has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 670 of 1311 (814110)
07-04-2017 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 668 by Coyote
07-04-2017 1:11 PM


Re: Interesting question...
cognitive dissonance reduction ...
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 668 by Coyote, posted 07-04-2017 1:11 PM Coyote has not replied

  
CRR
Member (Idle past 2242 days)
Posts: 579
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 671 of 1311 (814137)
07-04-2017 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 666 by JonF
07-04-2017 9:29 AM


Re: definitions
JonF writes:
No operational definition of "kind" there.
Actually you're right, they don't give a definition of kind in the linked article. But I have previously given my definition in Message 644
However the question of how members of a kind are determined is covered in there.
The creationist ‘orchard’diversity has occurred with time within the original Genesis ‘kinds.’

This message is a reply to:
 Message 666 by JonF, posted 07-04-2017 9:29 AM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 672 by Pressie, posted 07-05-2017 2:14 AM CRR has not replied
 Message 673 by JonF, posted 07-05-2017 8:07 AM CRR has not replied
 Message 674 by Tangle, posted 07-05-2017 8:34 AM CRR has not replied
 Message 677 by Taq, posted 07-05-2017 10:52 AM CRR has not replied

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 672 of 1311 (814142)
07-05-2017 2:14 AM
Reply to: Message 671 by CRR
07-04-2017 10:40 PM


Re: definitions
The one with the loss of genetic information? It's useless because you can't even tell us how you know whether genetic information is lost or gained...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 671 by CRR, posted 07-04-2017 10:40 PM CRR has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 673 of 1311 (814234)
07-05-2017 8:07 AM
Reply to: Message 671 by CRR
07-04-2017 10:40 PM


Re: definitions
But I have previously given my definition in Message 644
No operational definition of "kind" there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 671 by CRR, posted 07-04-2017 10:40 PM CRR has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 674 of 1311 (814235)
07-05-2017 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 671 by CRR
07-04-2017 10:40 PM


Re: definitions
CRR writes:
The creationist ‘orchard’diversity has occurred with time within the original Genesis ‘kinds.’
That picture at least begins to clarify to me why you're so obsessed with common descent. So you're left with the elephant and tapir problem - which tree in your orchard do they hang from?
And while you're at it, can you enlighten me on clean and unclean. The bible describes them as seperate kinds so they too must have different trees. Pigs and cows on different trees? Pigs on the same tree as rock bagder and camel? How does it work?
Presumably the Discovery Institute have published their own taxonomy somewhere?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 671 by CRR, posted 07-04-2017 10:40 PM CRR has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


(1)
Message 675 of 1311 (814239)
07-05-2017 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 659 by CRR
07-04-2017 3:33 AM


Re: definitions
CRR writes:
Well so far we have found that the terms evolution, theory of evolution, species, kinds, microevolution, and macroevolution, can all be clearly defined; just not in a way that everyone agrees with. Definitions seem to be remarkably idiosyncratic.
Definitions are context dependent.
This is why evo-biologists can get excited by Trinidad Guppies and Galapagos Finches and say the trivial changes observed are evolution in action.
Macroevolution is the accumulation of what you call trivial changes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 659 by CRR, posted 07-04-2017 3:33 AM CRR has not replied

  
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