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Author | Topic: Who & what are the demons ? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Phat writes:
I would argue that you refuse to allow any belief to color your conclusions---which may be a wise approach yet in many cases...including yours...leads to atheism.jar writes: Based on your belief---nothing. You always encourage folks to throw God away or in this case, a supernatural manifestation. And where is the problem with that? Perhaps you are right. The world would be a better place if all religious folks simply threw God away and approached life logically, reasonably and rationally. After all, IF GOD exists, GOD exists regardless of our beliefs, feelings, and conclusions. As for Demons, you may encourage us to fuggedaboudit. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Tangle writes: I agree. Doctors have degrees for a reason.
Surely you're not medieval enough to diagnose schizophrenia as demon possession? That's just silly. And bloody dangerous. quote: Chew on that nuttiness for awhile!Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
which brings up a fair question. Does everyone automatically start out as an atheist or is that something requiring mindful decisions?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
It seems that they also stop telling the truth. Who are "they"? And why do you make this assertion? Are you claiming that Fundamentalists lie more often than the general population? If so, is your reasoning that they know and yet deny reality? You yourself have said that some of your own beliefs are irrational.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Tangle writes: I would argue that atheism is also a learned behavior. Of course children are told stories. They also have to be taught what is truth and what is myth. Religiosity is learned behavior.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ribngo writes: Not if the outcome is in line with Satan. Why possess someone who is already a non-believer? As more and more people grow away from Christianity, why is the occurrence of demon possession also declining? Shouldn't it be going up? Of course, to be fair, this correlates demonic oppression with belief. Which actually lends support to the whole mental illness thing. Tangle could be right. All belief could be a form of mental disorder. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Stile writes: In your case, yes. I don't believe that you will be sent to hell or have a more troubled life simply due to your calm and patient questioning and logical approach. Your logic is a gift. You have already explained several times why you are not a believer. I should remain an atheist and definitely stay away from all of Christianity. Allow me to ask you a question. Is the whole idea of demons as illogical as the idea of God? Can you hypothetically walk us through your deductive analysis?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
In light of our recent discussions (between me and a host of you) I think it is time to revisit this topic and expand upon it. I believe in this stuff. We could simply end it at that and check me in to the nearest mental ward, which I'm sure is the basic conclusion of many of the EvC peanut gallery. Keep in mind my basic motive for bringing this topic back up.
Which is: I dont want to encourage the EPG (EvC Peanut Gallery) to believe in demons, though I *do* believe that they exist and that there is one God Who exists and is manifest as "The Holy Spirit" (through Jesus Christ, Who actually existed, died, and was resurrected). Jesus promised that He would send "The Comforter" who was and is the Holy Spirit. As I browse back in this 2009 topic, I see how the disagreements develop.
Bailey (Topic Originator) writes: Personally I think that "hey" are disembodied personalities. "They" are spirits(plural) in search of a vessel.(A Body) We have heard it rumored that the demons Jesus and His apostles cast out are fallen angels. However, there is no passage that actually says that (to our knowledge). This came to us earlier as we were contemplating Jude 6, And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day
2nd Peter 2:4 is similar. The issue here is that Satan and his Angels are cast out of Heaven immediately after Jesus' resurrection (Rev 12:9). If the Authors of Jude and Peter claim that these angels were put into hell, then they could not have been around tormenting people during Acts, and Paul would not be too concerned about their teaching people in 1st Timothy 4:1. If it may appear that demons are not fallen angels, then what are they, and where do they come from?Bailey writes: To summarize my personal belie and position I believe that there is One God. One Creator (of all seen and unseen) I believe that despite the insistence on religion and gods and beliefs as a relativistic pantheon of human ideas, there is in fact One God and One Lord Jesus Christ. And yes, EPG, this is an assertion and not yet an argument. Some might find this just an odd question of no real relevance, but some would find it very relevant because many teach that the Father cannot create anything evil. The bible itself says no such thing, but many hold that it would go against the God's goodness. This is rumored to be the same reason people claim Satan had to be an angel at some point. Actually, it seems the above verses would suggest that Satan is not, in fact, a fallen angel, as (apparently) he is not confined in hell at the moment. Perhaps demons are evil souls of Nephlim who died.
[shrugs] Anyone else have some ideas? First, some comments from others in this old topic:
Larni writes:
Demons are simply a way for xians to personify that which is not xian, to look at other religions and label any their supernatural entities as evil and terrify the gullible into the benevolent arms of the priest or vicar.ICANT writes: Personally, I believe that God allowed one of His Angels to fully rebel and that the concept of rebellion itself was free will personified (or angelified( ) In essence, I believe that God created the possibility of evil. If He foreknew what would occur, He knew that potentialized "evil" would become actualized evil through angelic choice. I do know there must be good and evil for there to be a choice. If there was no evil what would the choice be? Good, Good, or Good. Therefore it was necessary for the devil and his messengers to exist. The only way for that to happen was for God to create them. It was also necessary for the first man to disobey God's rule for us to exist. So those that don't like God's plan can tell Him how He should have done things when they meet Him.The religious dogma and thoughts within much of traditional Christian thought seem to support this. Lucifer chose to rebel, did in fact fall from "grace" and heaven, does tempt humans, though some such as ringo believe that satan is simply a character trait within us. This wouldnt mean that he couldnt also exist independent of humans just as God does. It just so happened that satan got first dibs at spiritual communion with the new human creation, though God foresaw that it would happen and already had Jesus as the human representation of His character. But lest I get long winded...
Devils Advocate writes: Thanks for answering my question, ICANT. I guess what I mean by philisophical is that this question pertains to the study of ethics (what behavior is considered right and wrong i.e. morality) which is a subset of philosophy.
I do know there must be good and evil for there to be a choice. I guess it depends on how do you define good and evil? Especially from your statements it appears that God created both good and evil. Or is good and evil arbitrarily determined by God and we can not comprehend the reasoning behind the decision of what is good and what is evil. Also it sounds like "good" and "evil" are created by God and thus dependent on the existence of God rather than existing seperate from the existence of God? If this is true how are you sure that God is truly good and not evil? What standard are you basing this assumption on? Here is a rather humorous video I thought that puts this into perspective: Finally....some recent comments from the EPGEvC Peanut Gallery)
AZPaul3 writes: You think I'm a demon out to destroy Raph's faith. You honestly believe that, don't you. Phat, Phat, Phat. How perceptive and yet how damn dumb at the same time. If given the opportunity, yes, I will poke and prod at his belief system. Yes, if I could convert him to BEA (baby-eating atheism) I would be ecstatic but I realistically don't hold out much hope of that. This is for the spectator, the lurker. That's why I let him know he represents more in this talk than merely his own interests. In challenging Raph's view I will, I hope, be challenging all belief systems based on superstitious BS. I'm not going to convert anybody, maybe. I'm not going to destroy anyone's life like your creed requires you do to people. (oooo, you're going to hell, heathen demon) I aim to challenge the thought process of superstition and expose its weaknesses and fatalities. In doing so, I hope that in some small way the lurkers and spectators will help our society move away from the scourge of superstition. This is an excellent example of just the BS I'm talking about. Demonize the opposition as a step to adding hate to the formula. Your god sucks. But then that's pretty much what you would expect a demon to say. Better burn me at the stake just to be safe. AZPaul3 writes: But then, what are we to make of this stuff?[/qs]
Superstition has ruled humanity for millennia and it's been an unmitigated disaster of blood, torture and death. Rationality is just dawning in our species on a societal level. We are not only allowed, it is imperative that we elevate reality to the position of prime decision maker. Superstition needs to die. Or at most relegated to childhood fantasies. I even chaffe at that. So now we have our discussion. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo in 2017 writes: He provides a way out. What He wont do is allow the realm of Spirit and Supernatural to cease to exist simply because YOU dont want to deal with it.
You want your God to be loving and protecting but you still believe in malicious demons? Why doesn't your God protect us from them? ringo in 2015 writes: Keep standing at that altar, flowers in hand. The Universe wont marry you nor will evidence. Evidence may finally show you that your Groom is worthy, however. (and that He exists)
Anything we call a "spiritual nature" is just an offshoot of our "carnal nature". Altruism evolved because it's good for the group and what's good for the group is good for the individual. There can be conflict between what's good for me now and what's good for the group in the long run but it's silly to call that "spiritual warfare" or to bring "demons" into it. ringo,2017 writes: Once the liberal thought police are able to label all belief as a mental aberration, proselytizing can be effectively banned and the antichrist can effectively step on stage and lead us all into a bright secular evidence based future. How can you draw good conclusions from subjective data?"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: Hey, I agree! I dont want the antichrist to exist. I dont want there to be demons nor do I want to have any or have to deal with them. Paranoia is a recognized mental aberration, you know. On the Far Right and in fundamentalism, we have the apocalyptic last days scenario.On the Left, and in current rational thought, we have an evidence based scenario regarding the conditions that will lead to global warming. As in the apocalyptic scenario, we see displacement of global populations, potential wars and rumors of wars, famine disease and cold love among many being quite possible. If what you once said is right, demons are merely our own carnal nature and expressiveness coming out. The question to ask at this point is --- How strong will we as a species have to be to survive these times and challenges? Will we all cooperate and get past the challenge together or will we fight--and die? The answer to this will also be the answer to whether the demons won or not. "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I dont need to show you one. If they exist, you will someday know about it. If not, I will someday either realize it, be dead, or be heavily medicated.
tangle writes: Not necessarily. You may someday "see" things that you never believed. But you will struggle mightily to reason them away. Any answer but the obvious. You say that before we can see one, we have to believe in them. Edited by Phat, : added pooop"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Phat writes:
I dont need to show you one.Tangle writes: Stop and think. In order to "show you" a demon, I would have to either conjure one up (which I wont do as it would hurt my own spirit to even attempt doing so) make one up which would be dishonest and lying, or wait around an altar with a hidden camera which likely would look no different than the videos. And I think (though obviously cannot prove) that demons don't really want to advertise. Of course in the interest of honesty I can throw the belief in them away. I would as soon not give them any more attention than they already receive. You do if you want me to believe you. Otherwise you're wasting your time. Now...what I would want to try and do would be to pray that you somehow someday saw evidence of the Holy Spirit. All that I would need from you would be verbal affirmation and permission to see and comprehend such an event. I would of course expect you to question it as this is your nature, and I would likely expect you to doubt it and offer some alternative explanations."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: The only "evidence" we have about demons is found in scripture.
Paranoia is not about not wanting something to exist. It's about thinking something is out to get you when there's no evidence that it is. Eph 6:10-20 writes: NIV-Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints. 19 Pray also for me, that whenever I open my mouth, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it fearlessly, as I should. Of course your arguments attempt to neuter scripture as being an impotent story and that it is in no way equal to the words defining the evidence of the scientific methodology of definition. I want this in the record.
Phat writes:
As in the apocalyptic scenario, we see displacement of global populations, potential wars and rumors of wars, famine disease and cold love among many being quite possible.ringo writes: Those things have happened throughout history. They have nothing to do with any apocalypse and certainly nothing to do with demons.(...)We might not survive. Phat writes:
Will we all cooperate and get past the challenge together or will we fight--and die? The answer to this will also be the answer to whether the demons won or not.ringo writes: And so might not us.
No it won't. "The demons" don't exist.Rev 17:8 writes: 8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come. It does not take Rocket Science to interpret the scripture. God was, Is, and always will be. The beast (demons,bad vibes, whatever) once was (as Lucifer,maybe?) now is not (demons dont exist..etc) and yet will come. We will either exist in eternity with Jesus and the Holy Spirit or we wont exist at all, as you suggest."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
anglagard writes: I have seen and experienced enough to believe that the supernatural is real. You guys are simply loking at it as humanitarian and opposition to corrupt earthly leaders. No wonder you like to compare Matthew to Bernie Sanders. Your posts indicate you have not read, or if did, understand the plain meaning of the text. Ringo did that, jar did that, I did that, why can't you?Granted you have found no evidence to support my belief, but I assure you its no mere fantasy. As far as I honestly deduce, demons and angels are real. To me, spirituality is on a higher plain than mere humanitarianism and empathy."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Phat writes:
I dont want there to be demons nor do I want to have any or have to deal with them.dwise1 writes: So why create them? Looking back, I never consciously saw myself or others creating them so much as observing them. I will give you the idea that people may think that they have them and behave accordingly especially on stage at an altar in front of a crowd of believing peers. I would see people throw up, cuss,exhibit hateful emotions against the exorcist(Pastor or layman attempting to do the deliverance) and behave much like the people in the videos I presented in Message 320 Even back then, I was skeptical of some of the behavior, though I was somewhat delighted that evil actually had a manifestation that we could say was apart from the seekers, as they often had an emotional catharsis leading to lasting change in their lives. Well, I should say that some did. Others were at the altar week after week with another "demon" to get rid of and a propensity for public drama. My point is that I can see the arguments regarding "creating" the demons or the drama or the multiple personality exhibitions. What gives me pause in my assessment is due to the very real event that happened with me. I have told the story here before, and of all that I remember, the thing that most stood out is the high pitched chipmunk sounding voices that I clearly heard which set my experience apart from simply throwing up and putting on a show. That one small bit of unexplained drama was enough to convince me that there was something to the idea that demons (or some unexplained manifestation) most definitely DID exist. I Observed it. I heard it. I did NOT create it. I have a close friend who is intuitively philosophically minded and what some would say is intuitive. He is most definitely not of the charismatic/fundamentalist mold. His basic philosophy is to not worry about the "demons" but rather to focus on allowing the Holy Spirit to live strongly in you and that the demons--if any were ever around--would simply leave. And he wouldn't even call "it" the Holy Spirit. He would call it the creative force. The power of creativity, love, honesty and expressiveness."A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.” “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
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