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Author Topic:   Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Dredge
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Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 736 of 1311 (814676)
07-11-2017 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 733 by Tangle
07-11-2017 6:15 PM


Re: Interesting question...
Dredge writes:
Please describe the general theory of evolution without referring to common descent.
Tangle writes:
ffs, there's a whole thread on that very subject that does exactly that.
How many times? Are you really this dumb?
I wonder how all life on earth evolved from a unicellular organism without a process of common descent. The mind boggles.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 733 by Tangle, posted 07-11-2017 6:15 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 740 by JonF, posted 07-11-2017 8:08 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 742 by NoNukes, posted 07-11-2017 11:57 PM Dredge has not replied
 Message 745 by Tangle, posted 07-12-2017 2:52 AM Dredge has replied

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 737 of 1311 (814678)
07-11-2017 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 724 by NoNukes
07-11-2017 8:46 AM


Re: define "species"
Dredge writes: First of all, it seems to me that you are making an assumption - ie, that the mutations are "new". Is it not possible that bacteria are continually mutating through a fixed repertoire of mutations?
NoNukes writes:
How would that work exactly?
I'm not sure ... yet. My brilliant, but fragile, egg-shell mind just thought of it.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Dredge
Member
Posts: 2850
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016


Message 738 of 1311 (814679)
07-11-2017 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 727 by Taq
07-11-2017 12:03 PM


Re: define "species"
Taq writes:
That's why natural selection by itself is not the totality of evolution. You also need random mutations (with respect to fitness) producing new variations.
The Peppered Moth case didn't involve new variations, yet is it described as "evolution". In this case, natural selection = evolution.
A sausage dog is produced from a wolf - a new variation. Is this evolution?
Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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NosyNed
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Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


(1)
Message 739 of 1311 (814680)
07-11-2017 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 737 by Dredge
07-11-2017 7:47 PM


mutations
Remember, in the case I think is being discussed. The bacteria all came from asexual budding of one bacterium. So they should all have the exact same genome. And they were not resistant. Therefore the resistance had to have come about from mutations.

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JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 740 of 1311 (814681)
07-11-2017 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 736 by Dredge
07-11-2017 7:31 PM


Re: Interesting question...
I wonder why a creationist who believes in thousands of original ancestors cannot conceive of evolution from more than one original ancestor.
The theory of evolution does not require one common ancestor; there could be more. The best evidence we have indicates one, but things do get pretty blurry that far back. But when you get right down to it...

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JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 741 of 1311 (814682)
07-11-2017 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 737 by Dredge
07-11-2017 7:47 PM


Re: define "species"
Well, when you have some analysis demonstrating how it would fit with all current observations of mutations and some evidence of it actually happening, we can talk.
Personally I think the Invisible Pink Unicorn (blessed be she!) arranges each mutation individually according to Her Plan, unfathomable by mortals. Prove me wrong.

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 742 of 1311 (814705)
07-11-2017 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 736 by Dredge
07-11-2017 7:31 PM


Re: Interesting question...
I wonder how all life on earth evolved from a unicellular organism without a process of common descent. The mind boggles.
Hasn't this question been asked and answered many times in this thread?
The theory of evolution allows that there may have been more than one path of evolution from a unicellular organism. That's why common descent is not essential. In fact, when someone says that common descent is not necessarily the case, that is exactly the same thing as saying that all life on earth did not necessarily evolve from the same unicellular organism.
That answer is something you should have been able to supply yourself.

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 743 of 1311 (814706)
07-12-2017 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 738 by Dredge
07-11-2017 7:54 PM


Re: define "species"
The Peppered Moth case didn't involve new variations, yet is it described as "evolution"
In this you are just wrong. The peppered moth is one of the relatively small set of cases where both the specific mutation, and the date of its appearance are supported by scientific evidence. This particular detail has been the source of much discussion in these forums.
I find it amusing that you would simply assert the opposite without checking first.
There are plenty of other cases that have been noted. Most of them involve mutations that are dominant, and therefore could not have been hiding out in the population undetected. Also well discussed in previous thread.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 738 by Dredge, posted 07-11-2017 7:54 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 757 by Dredge, posted 07-12-2017 8:46 PM NoNukes has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 744 of 1311 (814709)
07-12-2017 12:49 AM
Reply to: Message 716 by Dredge
07-11-2017 6:58 AM


Re: define "species"
You have tautologised yourself into an illogical statement
Uh, no, that is impossible. A tautology is always true, just trivially true. The rest of your drivel is pure idiocy, which I guess is standard creationist fare.

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Tangle
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Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 745 of 1311 (814711)
07-12-2017 2:52 AM
Reply to: Message 736 by Dredge
07-11-2017 7:31 PM


Re: Interesting question...
Dredge writes:
I wonder how all life on earth evolved from a unicellular organism without a process of common descent.
It is most probable that all life on earth has a single common ancestor but it isn't necessary for the ToE that that is true.
The most commonly cited other possibility is that there are two; one for bacteria and one for archaea and eukaryotes.
It makes no difference at all to the ToE which of those is true or if another version is true.
It also makes no difference at all to creationist arguments about it.
What WOULD make a difference to the idea of common descent would be your crazy and unsupported idea of organisms descending from thousands (millions?) of individual 'kinds a few thousand years ago. So all you have to do is prove that to be true and collect the Nobel Prize. It should be very, very easy to do - evidence should be everywhere. Why haven't your side done it?
The mind boggles.
Yes, we can see that your mind is boggled.

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Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 746 of 1311 (814718)
07-12-2017 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 735 by Dredge
07-11-2017 6:28 PM


Re: Interesting question...
Dredge writes:
You seem to be under the impression that a theory offered to explain a certain obsevation is, in and of itself, useful.
Since the entire purpose of science is to explain observations, it kind of goes without saying.
Scientists have an explantion for why the sky is blue. Said explanation is not useful in any practical sense; it's just a theory ... an idea ... a story ... ink on paper.
Are you saying that this explanation is not true because it is not "useful" in your estimation?
In a similar way, universal common descent is a theory that attempts to explain an observation,
That is false. Universal common descent is a conclusion, not a theory.
It is also of practical use, such as the SIFTER algorithm that can predict protein function:
quote:
PLoS Comput Biol. 2005 Oct;1(5):e45. Epub 2005 Oct 7.
Protein molecular function prediction by Bayesian phylogenomics.
Engelhardt BE1, Jordan MI, Muratore KE, Brenner SE.
We present a statistical graphical model to infer specific molecular function for unannotated protein sequences using homology. Based on phylogenomic principles, SIFTER (Statistical Inference of Function Through Evolutionary Relationships) accurately predicts molecular function for members of a protein family given a reconciled phylogeny and available function annotations, even when the data are sparse or noisy. Our method produced specific and consistent molecular function predictions across 100 Pfam families in comparison to the Gene Ontology annotation database, BLAST, GOtcha, and Orthostrapper. We performed a more detailed exploration of functional predictions on the adenosine-5‘-monophosphate/adenosine deaminase family and the lactate/malate dehydrogenase family, in the former case comparing the predictions against a gold standard set of published functional characterizations. Given function annotations for 3% of the proteins in the deaminase family, SIFTER achieves 96% accuracy in predicting molecular function for experimentally characterized proteins as reported in the literature. The accuracy of SIFTER on this dataset is a significant improvement over other currently available methods such as BLAST (75%), GeneQuiz (64%), GOtcha (89%), and Orthostrapper (11%). We also experimentally characterized the adenosine deaminase from Plasmodium falciparum, confirming SIFTER's prediction. The results illustrate the predictive power of exploiting a statistical model of function evolution in phylogenomic problems. A software implementation of SIFTER is available from the authors.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 735 by Dredge, posted 07-11-2017 6:28 PM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 747 of 1311 (814719)
07-12-2017 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 738 by Dredge
07-11-2017 7:54 PM


Re: define "species"
Dredge writes:
The Peppered Moth case didn't involve new variations,
Yes, it did. The new variation was the black color caused by mutations.

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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 748 of 1311 (814721)
07-12-2017 10:55 AM


Funny
Creationists have been nipping at the heels of the Theory of Evolution for 150 years, all to no effect.
But the gyrations they go through and the "silver bullets" that are going to slay evolution (but never do) are sometimes pretty funny.
What's not so funny are the lies and self-delusions that you can find in creationist books and websites.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 749 of 1311 (814724)
07-12-2017 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 748 by Coyote
07-12-2017 10:55 AM


Re: Funny -- not really
The only reason there as been "no effect" is that the ToE is not subject to testing/replication like normal science is. It's all a matter of interpretation and once the establishment is committed to it fat chance it's going to be seriously reconsidered anytime soon. Or, since some here and there do rethink it and give it up, fat chance the truth will ever become recognized by the establishment as a whole, barring supernatural intervention to open the eyes. There are good arguments on both sides it seems to me, but those against the ToE should have killed it long ago.

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Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 750 of 1311 (814731)
07-12-2017 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 714 by CRR
07-11-2017 6:25 AM


a kind challenge
The Theory of Evolution thinks the root is LUCA (Last Universal Common Ancestor), Creationists think the roots are the created kinds.
So give us a list of your 10 best prospects for original created kinds (you should have hundreds),
and we'll tell you who we think their ancestor population was ... and who the ancestor population of that ancestor population was ...
So either that will invalidate the concept of created kind
or redefine it to the older ancestors ... and we can repeat the process.
If your view is correct then we should reach a point where we can't find ancestor populations.
Enjoy

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