|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total) |
| |
ChatGPT | |
Total: 916,783 Year: 4,040/9,624 Month: 911/974 Week: 238/286 Day: 45/109 Hour: 2/5 |
Summations Only | Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
Talk Origins describes Universal Common Descent as a "hypothesis". So I was wrong to call it a "theory" - way too generous. That's not how I would characterize things. You were insisting on a bogus definition of evolution over the repeated objections of most of the posters here, including the ones who worked in biological fields and were familiar with the subject. That was not generosity. That was just plain pigheadedness. And of course, your objective, which I assume now you'll have to punt on, was to attack the theory of evolution by murmuring about common descent not being proven. Looks like that "generous" attack vector is also off the maneuvering board. I'm sure you will dredge up something else. Can't wait. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
CRR Member (Idle past 2268 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
‘ resistance to poisons is rarely a free ride for either insects or other organisms, because the selective trade-offs imposed by pleiotropy often maintain polymorphism either within or between populations of a species. Some populations of Norway rats, for example, have evolved resistance to the rat poison warfarin. Where the poison is in widespread use, homozygotes for the allele that confers resistance are common. But that allele also lowers rats’ ability to synthesize vitamin K, a compound essential in allowing blood to clot, and they bleed more easily. For that reason, in places where warfarin is not used, individuals homozygous for this allele are at as much as a 54 percent selective disadvantage compared to wild-type rats, and the allele is far less common. The same sort of phenomenon has been demonstrated for the alleles that confer resistance to DDT and to dieldrin in mosquitoes.’
Levine, J. and Miller, K., Biology: Discovering Life, D.C. Heath, Lexington, p. 257, 1994. Researchers monitoring Culex pipiens mosquitoes overwintering in a cave in southern France (in an area where organophosphate insecticides are widely used) noted a decline in the overall frequency of insecticide-resistant mosquitoes relative to susceptible ones as the winter progressed, indicating a large fitness cost.Gazave, E., Chevillon, C., Lenormand, T., Marquine, M., Raymond, M., Dissecting the cost of insecticide resistance genes during the overwintering period of the mosquito Culex pipiens, Heredity 87:441—448, 2001
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
CRR Member (Idle past 2268 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined:
|
Acceptance of ToE is directly proportional to the incidence of atheism.
Rejection of the ToE is directly proportional to the incidence of wisdom. Creation is the theory that fits the facts.Evolution is the theory the facts don't fit.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Design by an omniscient Designer explains it all just fine.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Coyote Member (Idle past 2132 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
An explanation can be true yet useless to applied science. "Useful to applied science" is not a defining criterion in science. What is not useful now may be most useful in a few years. And in either case, creationists are not the judge of what is useful to science and what is not. They are more like fleas trying to tell the dog which path to take.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity. Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Coyote Member (Idle past 2132 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Acceptance of ToE is directly proportional to the incidence of atheism. Acceptance of bible literalism is inversely proportional to scientific knowledge.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity. Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
dwise1 Member Posts: 5949 Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
|
You seem to be under the impression that a theory offered to explain a certain obsevation is, in and of itself, useful. ... Theorising is not a use! And you seem to think the opposite. Very misguided of you. Understanding how something works is never useless, whereas ignorance of how it works is never useful. One of the most useful by-products of an answer to a scientific question (ie, "how does this work?") are more questions. In fact, it is a very poor scientific answer that does not produce more questions. Those new questions that you didn't even know to ask before are what direct further research. Without those new questions, science would grind to a halt. Please note that "goddidit" is an extremely poor answer in science because it does absolutely nothing towards answering the question of how things work, plus it raises no new questions thus killing science. Part of the benefit of understanding how something works are clues about how something else works. Which extends a scientific answer's new questions to other related scientific problems. That is most definitely not useless. And eventually somebody does find a practical use for the results of pure research. What about Einsteinian relativity? Pure theory, right? Useless according to you, right? Really? Really? Ever use GPS (Global Positioning System)? Or know somebody who uses GPS? GPS depends on measuring time very precisely, particularly the time that it takes for a GPS signal to travel from a GPS satellite to your GPS receiver. A fundamental problem with that is created by the relativisitic effects on the GPS satellites and your GPS receiver because they are in very different places within the earth's gravity well. For that matter, you see the same effect on the various atomic clocks that maintain our time standard which is then uploaded periodically to the GPS satellite constellation (twice a day, I think, but at the very least once). The various atomic clocks are located at different elevations and hence at different levels of the earth's gravity well and hence are themselves subject to relativistic effects. Relativity is a theory. You would proclaim it to be useless. Ever use GPS or know somebody who uses GPS? Duh? Also, in another message you used that old creationist canard, "Evolution is just a theory." In doing so, you proclaimed your own abject ignorance of science and how it works. Thank you for admitting that you have no idea what you are talking about -- or else you do know better but have chosen to lie because your god can only be served by lies and deception (according to standard Christian doctrine, wouldn't that god be Satan?).
Scientists have an explantion for why the sky is blue. Said explanation is not useful in any practical sense; it's just a theory ... an idea ... a story ... ink on paper. Reading suggestion for you: The Cuckoo's Egg: Tracking a Spy Through the Maze of Computer Espionage by Clifford Stoll (1989). It is the story of how PhD Astronomy candidate Clifford Stoll accidentally became a computer security expert. He was the subject of a Nova episode on PBS, "The KGB, the Computer, and Me", in which he played himself -- that is how I had learned about him. Don't worry; it's a very easy and entertaining read. That cloak-and-dagger cyber-adventure happened when he was completing his PhD Astronomy and had to work in the meantime as a sysadmin at UC Berkeley. In the book, he describes his oral exams. One professor asked him, "Why is the sky blue?" Simple question to answer? Not in the least! I forget exactly, but it took him between two to four hours to answer that question. Physics of light, chemistry of the atmosphere, and I forget what else. Answering that question taps into all aspects of physics, which themselves are the foundation of so much other physics, some of which have also produced practical technological applications. Do you see a pattern here?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
|
Dredge writes: One, two or ten, the theory that all life on earth evolved from tiny, widdle primordial critters is a theory of common descent. As you have now apparently discovered, common descent is not a theory. Progress of sorts.
Dredge has spoken. Yes, wrongly as you now accept. I've been here a few years now and have noticed that the crazier creationists - the real fruitcakes - speak of themselves in this third party way. You need to keep a watch on yourself.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Dredge writes: The truth is, white and black P. Moths have always existed in the same population. Their frequency changes depending on selection pressures. Everyone knows that ... or should. The change was caused by a mutation in the early 19th century.
quote: Famous peppered moth's dark secret revealed - BBC NewsJe suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
CRR Member (Idle past 2268 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
Cornelius Hunter has a different view in his blog post How the Peppered Moth Backfired
While agreeing that it is a recent mutation he says;First, changing colors is hardly a pathway leading to the kinds of massive biological change evolution requires. Second, research strongly suggests that the cause of the darkening, at the molecular level, is an enormous genetic insertion not in a DNA coding sequence, but in an intervening region (intron), which have been considered to be junk DNA in the past.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
|
and this "backfires" how?
Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
The truth is, white and black P. Moths have always existed in the same population. Their frequency changes depending on selection pressures. Everyone knows that ... or should. I see that Tangle has provided some additional information. I am curious as to what it would take for you to check your answer before posting. While I am aware of how selection works, I am also aware that mutations occur, and I wouldn't assume without checking that a relatively recent (the early 1800s it turns out) mutation was not involved. Your peer CRR at least has not made the same mistake. Everyone should know better than to speak repeatedly from ignorance, yet you do not. Edited by NoNukes, : acknowledge CRR's post Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
|
CRR writes:
First, changing colors is hardly a pathway leading to the kinds of massive biological change evolution requires. Yes, by god, it's still a moth!
Second, research strongly suggests that the cause of the darkening, at the molecular level, is an enormous genetic insertion not in a DNA coding sequence, but in an intervening region (intron), which have been considered to be junk DNA in the past. Yes, a mutation. So we have a beneficial mutation plus natural selection leading to a change in phenotype in response to a change in the environment. A perfectly demonstrated example of the predicted components of one form of the evolutionary process.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London. "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 10073 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
CRR writes: Researchers monitoring Culex pipiens mosquitoes overwintering in a cave in southern France (in an area where organophosphate insecticides are widely used) noted a decline in the overall frequency of insecticide-resistant mosquitoes relative to susceptible ones as the winter progressed, indicating a large fitness cost.Gazave, E., Chevillon, C., Lenormand, T., Marquine, M., Raymond, M., Dissecting the cost of insecticide resistance genes during the overwintering period of the mosquito Culex pipiens, Heredity 87:441—448, 2001 If you took a polar bear and plopped it down in the Sahara desert it probably wouldn't last but a few days before dying. Does that mean the polar bear is not well adapted to its native environment? Is there a large fitness cost for adapting to the cold?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Taq Member Posts: 10073 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
Faith writes: Design by an omniscient Designer explains it all just fine. How so? Why would a designer create life so that molecular phylogenies correlate to phylogenies based on physical characteristics?
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024