Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 63 (9162 total)
6 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 916,336 Year: 3,593/9,624 Month: 464/974 Week: 77/276 Day: 5/23 Hour: 2/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   How is Natural selection a mechanism?
Taq
Member
Posts: 10021
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 133 of 191 (816187)
07-31-2017 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by AndrewPD
07-29-2017 12:17 PM


AndrewPD writes:
Why do things attempt to survive? Why do genes have a survival motive?
Because it is the genes that do increase the rate of survival that are passed on. It is a feedback loop that increases the rate of survival over time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by AndrewPD, posted 07-29-2017 12:17 PM AndrewPD has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10021
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 140 of 191 (816298)
08-02-2017 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by AndrewPD
08-02-2017 12:21 PM


AndrewPD writes:
People see colours differently and people experience things differently so for instance a vivid red sensation can make some people repulsed.
However, we can ask someone what their favorite color is and then measure the wavelength of light for that color. This gives us an objective measure of what they say is their favorite color.
We also know that the experience of color is governed by the physical brain.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by AndrewPD, posted 08-02-2017 12:21 PM AndrewPD has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Tanypteryx, posted 08-02-2017 5:32 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10021
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 144 of 191 (816314)
08-02-2017 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by AndrewPD
08-02-2017 12:14 PM


AndrewPD writes:
It is also serious entropy reversal (which I think has been a valid criticism of the theory)
If energy is added to a system then you can have entropy reversal (i.e. negative entropy). This is why we are able to use things like refrigerators which produce negative entropy. If refrigerators don't violate the laws of physics, then neither does life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by AndrewPD, posted 08-02-2017 12:14 PM AndrewPD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by NoNukes, posted 08-02-2017 10:24 PM Taq has replied
 Message 155 by AndrewPD, posted 08-03-2017 9:27 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10021
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 151 of 191 (816363)
08-03-2017 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by NoNukes
08-02-2017 10:24 PM


NoNukes writes:
How do they think babies develop from a small clump of cells?
Or, how do they think babies develop from a single cell? They claim that evolution of complex multicellular from single celled ancestors violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics, yet those very same people started out as a single cell and developed into a complex multicellular human in just 9 months. If it happens over the span of 9 months all of the freaking time, then they really can't say that it couldn't have occurred over the span of billions of years.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by NoNukes, posted 08-02-2017 10:24 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10021
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 163 of 191 (816431)
08-04-2017 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by AndrewPD
08-03-2017 9:27 PM


AndrewPD writes:
A Refrigerator is intelligently designed.
You can't intelligently design something to violate the laws of physics.
I don't see how the sun reduces entropy simply by giving off energy.
Have you not heard of photosynthesis? The production of sugars from water and carbon dioxide requires negative entropy, and that is driven by the energy coming from the Sun.
Does it reduce entropy on Mars?
Yes. The equator of Mars is warmer than the poles. Any time you have a continuous temperature gradient that is negative entropy, and in the case of the temperature distributions on Mars that negative entropy is driven by the Sun (as it is on Earth).
So it is statistically unlikely that all the molecules in a gas will go into one corner of a jar because there are to many other possible arrangements. So entropy reflects the unlikelihood of certain formations or order when there is a huge range of other probabilistically available outcomes.
Take a look at high and low pressure systems in Earth's atmosphere. Those are driven by the Sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by AndrewPD, posted 08-03-2017 9:27 PM AndrewPD has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by Riggamortis, posted 08-04-2017 11:11 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10021
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 181 of 191 (816632)
08-08-2017 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by CRR
08-08-2017 7:09 AM


Re: the original topic issue was ... ?
CRR writes:
Even though gay people can have children natural selection should work so long as on average they have less children than straights.
One explanation is that being gay is not due to genes, not heritable, so then natural selection won't have any effect. Perhaps it is a trait that appears randomly in each generation.
It is also possible that homosexuality is a somewhat rare side effect of another attribute that is being selected for, such as group empathy, heterosexual sex drive, or intelligence. As long as the side effect remains low then the much more common effect that is being selected for will continue to maintain the attribute in the population.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by CRR, posted 08-08-2017 7:09 AM CRR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by CRR, posted 08-09-2017 3:42 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10021
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 182 of 191 (816633)
08-08-2017 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by AndrewPD
08-05-2017 1:51 PM


AndrewPD writes:
Here is a simple analogy of entropy.
You drop an uncooked egg and it shatters.
I don't think there has ever been an instance where that egg has in the next moment or later returned to being an unbroken egg.
That has more to do with quantum mechanics than thermodynamics. As far as thermodynamics goes, if you dropped the egg into a bowl, and then lifted the bowl back to the height the egg was previously at you will have moved the system back to the entropy it had before. The energy used up in the system was the gravitational energy released during the fall.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by AndrewPD, posted 08-05-2017 1:51 PM AndrewPD has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10021
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 187 of 191 (816680)
08-09-2017 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by CRR
08-09-2017 3:42 AM


Re: Natural selection & homosexuality
CRR writes:
And if homosexuality is not heritable then natural selection won't work at all. AFAIK it's not heritable so no natural selection.
I don't think there are specific mutations that are directly linked to homosexuality, but there rarely are for complex characteristics or behaviors. I would view sexuality as more of a spectrum and the result of many, many genes interacting, along with social interaction.
What we may also be ignoring is the nurture side of the equation. Higher population density may trigger different types of social and emotional development. A good example can be found in some insect species, such as high population density turning grasshoppers into swarming locusts that includes obvious morphological changes. Homosexuality may actually serve a positive role when population densities get high by reducing competition for mates while maintaining kin selection.
Of course, what we ought to do is not determined by what is being selected for or against, otherwise known as the Is/Ought problem.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by CRR, posted 08-09-2017 3:42 AM CRR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by Pressie, posted 08-11-2017 5:38 AM Taq has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024