Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 65 (9073 total)
78 online now:
Tanypteryx (1 member, 77 visitors)
Newest Member: MidwestPaul
Post Volume: Total: 893,345 Year: 4,457/6,534 Month: 671/900 Week: 195/182 Day: 28/47 Hour: 0/0

Announcements: Security Update Released


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 97 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 1216 of 1311 (816416)
08-04-2017 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1211 by Dredge
08-04-2017 3:26 AM


Do you know what an internet troll is?

An internet troll is someone who posts just to provoke an emotional response from other members. Is that what you are doing?

If so... stop! It's nonsense, unproductive and unbecoming of a professing Christian.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1211 by Dredge, posted 08-04-2017 3:26 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1240 by Dredge, posted 08-05-2017 2:13 AM herebedragons has taken no action

  
CRR
Member (Idle past 1482 days)
Posts: 579
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 1217 of 1311 (816417)
08-04-2017 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 1114 by Percy
07-28-2017 8:45 AM


Percy writes:

Except that Michael Ruse objects to being quote-mined like this.


Except that I read your link and while the quote is an extract from the 5 pages it is representative of what Ruse said, and as such is not quote mining. Ruse's quotes from Stephen J Gould continue to reinforce the theme that many evolutionists give religious overtones to the theory of evolution
quote:
The language of Stephen Jay Gould is hardly more tempered. We learn that evolution "liberates the human spirit," that for sheer excitement evolution "beats any myth of human origins by light years," and that we should "praise this evolutionary nexus -- a far more stately mansion for the human soul than any pretty or parochial comfort ever conjured by our swollen neurology to obscure the source of physical being."

Mr. Gould ultimately rejects traditional readings of evolution for a more inspiring, liberating version: "We must assume that consciousness would not have evolved on our planet if a cosmic catastrophe had not claimed the dinosaurs as victims. In an entirely literal sense, we owe our existence, as large and reasoning mammals, to our lucky stars." If this is not to rival traditional Judaeo-Christian teaching -- with its central belief that we humans are not just random happenstances, but a major reason why God created heaven and earth -- I do not know what is.


Ruse did qualify it toward the end by saying

quote:
There is no need to make a religion of evolution. On its own merits, evolution as science is just that -- good, tough, forward-looking science, which should be taught as a matter of course to all children, regardless of creed.

Ruse wrote what he wrote. The quote is fair.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1114 by Percy, posted 07-28-2017 8:45 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1223 by JonF, posted 08-04-2017 9:33 AM CRR has taken no action
 Message 1245 by Percy, posted 08-05-2017 7:47 AM CRR has taken no action

  
CRR
Member (Idle past 1482 days)
Posts: 579
From: Australia
Joined: 10-19-2016


Message 1218 of 1311 (816419)
08-04-2017 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 1215 by herebedragons
08-04-2017 8:41 AM


Miracles
There is no reason why a person who accepts evolutionary theory as the best explanation of how life on earth came to be so diverse can't also believe in miracles.

Do you believe in miracles?
Which ones?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1215 by herebedragons, posted 08-04-2017 8:41 AM herebedragons has taken no action

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 1219 of 1311 (816420)
08-04-2017 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1207 by Dredge
08-04-2017 2:58 AM


Re: seven "assumptions"
God arranged to have his Word recorded in written form to preserve its accuracy down through the centuries.

That's your fallible interpretation.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1207 by Dredge, posted 08-04-2017 2:58 AM Dredge has taken no action

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 1220 of 1311 (816421)
08-04-2017 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1207 by Dredge
08-04-2017 2:58 AM


Re: seven "assumptions"
Human intelligence is infallible? I didn't know that!

Nor does Ringo, because he didn't claim that. He never claimed all errors are corrected and ,of course, if human intelligence were infallible there wouldn't be any errors to correct.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1207 by Dredge, posted 08-04-2017 2:58 AM Dredge has taken no action

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33913
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 1221 of 1311 (816422)
08-04-2017 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1207 by Dredge
08-04-2017 2:58 AM


Then God screwed up.
Dredge writes:

God arranged to have his Word recorded in written form to preserve its accuracy down through the centuries.

Yet what was written down is filled with fallacies, contradictions, absurdities and records an evil, mean, not all that bright God.

If God wanted accuracy you would think he could do better than what is recorded in the Bible.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1207 by Dredge, posted 08-04-2017 2:58 AM Dredge has taken no action

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 1222 of 1311 (816423)
08-04-2017 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1214 by herebedragons
08-04-2017 8:11 AM


Re: Gould's observations do support Creationism
So... you think God created some species of animal and it thrived for a time and then died out so God created a new species that was very similar to the original species but had some modifications, but that also died out after a number of years, so God tried again... and again... and again... until he finally hit upon a suitable design - and those are our modern species

All in a few thousand years. But wait... didn't all those animal exist at the time of the Fludde?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1214 by herebedragons, posted 08-04-2017 8:11 AM herebedragons has taken no action

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 1223 of 1311 (816424)
08-04-2017 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1217 by CRR
08-04-2017 8:55 AM


Except that I read your link and while the quote is an extract from the 5 pages it is representative of what Ruse said, and as such is not quote mining.

Eminent biologist hits back at the creationists who 'hijacked' his theory for their own ends

Did you read that link?

Do you know better than him what he meant?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1217 by CRR, posted 08-04-2017 8:55 AM CRR has taken no action

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 1346 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 1224 of 1311 (816426)
08-04-2017 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1204 by Dredge
08-04-2017 2:24 AM


Re: seven "assumptions"
But using the "starting point" of a young earth is no worse than using evolution as a starting point, which is what most atheists do.

There is evidence for one "starting point" but not for the other. In fact, the evidence flatly contradicts a young earth.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1204 by Dredge, posted 08-04-2017 2:24 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1281 by Dredge, posted 08-06-2017 2:07 AM Coyote has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8519
Joined: 03-06-2009


(1)
Message 1225 of 1311 (816434)
08-04-2017 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1202 by Dredge
08-04-2017 1:55 AM


Re: Gould's observations do support Creationism
Dredge writes:

I can't accept that Gould would not consider "sudden appearance" and "stasis" to be evidence of creation. If not "sudden appearance" and "stasis", then one wonders, what would he consider to be evidence of creation?

A few off the top of my head:

A rabbit in Cambrian strata.
A species with a mixture of bird and mammal features.
A mammal with many genes that have nearly 100% homology to jellyfish, but a lack of those same genes in other mammals.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1202 by Dredge, posted 08-04-2017 1:55 AM Dredge has taken no action

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19539
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 1226 of 1311 (816435)
08-04-2017 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1197 by Faith
08-03-2017 4:03 PM


Re: seven "assumptions"
Faith writes:

Except writings inspired by God Himself.


It makes no difference who or what inspired the writings. All writings are subject to the failures of human understanding.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1197 by Faith, posted 08-03-2017 4:03 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1230 by Faith, posted 08-04-2017 3:55 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19539
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 1227 of 1311 (816436)
08-04-2017 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1197 by Faith
08-03-2017 4:03 PM


Re: seven "assumptions"
Duplicate

Edited by ringo, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1197 by Faith, posted 08-03-2017 4:03 PM Faith has taken no action

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19539
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 1228 of 1311 (816437)
08-04-2017 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1206 by Dredge
08-04-2017 2:47 AM


Re: seven "assumptions"
Dredge writes:

As I have already explained in a previous post, it would seem that demons, or Satan, are not capable of "speaking" to humans in an audible voice.


Demons and Satan are also not literal. Notice how you have to make up rules like, "They can't speak in an audible voice," which is just as silly as snakes that can speak in an audible voice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1206 by Dredge, posted 08-04-2017 2:47 AM Dredge has taken no action

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19539
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 1229 of 1311 (816438)
08-04-2017 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1207 by Dredge
08-04-2017 2:58 AM


Re: seven "assumptions"
Dredge writes:

God arranged to have his Word recorded in written form to preserve its accuracy down through the centuries. An oral method wouldn't work as it would be very prone to mistakes when being passed from one person to the next.


Written accounts are just as prone to error: copying errors, mistranslation, outright redaction.... the list goes on and on. The difference between oral and written transmission is that the errors in the written version are easier to detect. We ca see what King James' translators did to their "originals" but we have no recordings of Moses telling bedtime stories to his grandchildren. If you want to claim that one method is better than the other you should choose oral because the evidence of the changes has been lost.

Dredge writes:

The Jews went to extreme lenghts to ensure that each and every word was accurately copied from one Bible copy to the next.


But the Christians didn't. They had a lot of axes to grind.

Dredge writes:

Human intelligence is infallible?


I didn't say that. I said it's correctable, even self-correcting, if you like. Intelligence is the ability to learn, to recognize mistakes and not make the same mistakes over and over again.

It's the opposite of literalism. Intelligence recognizes that there are errors in the Bible. Literalists try to twist reality to fit the errors.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1207 by Dredge, posted 08-04-2017 2:58 AM Dredge has taken no action

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 684 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1230 of 1311 (816446)
08-04-2017 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1226 by ringo
08-04-2017 11:36 AM


Re: seven "assumptions"
All writings are subject to the failures of human understanding.

Except those inspired by God.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1226 by ringo, posted 08-04-2017 11:36 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1231 by Taq, posted 08-04-2017 4:25 PM Faith has replied
 Message 1236 by JonF, posted 08-04-2017 5:41 PM Faith has replied
 Message 1259 by ringo, posted 08-05-2017 11:36 AM Faith has taken no action

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.1
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2022