Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 64 (9073 total)
572 online now:
dwise1, Phat, Tangle, Tanypteryx (4 members, 568 visitors)
Newest Member: FossilDiscovery
Post Volume: Total: 893,254 Year: 4,366/6,534 Month: 580/900 Week: 104/182 Day: 11/27 Hour: 0/0

Announcements: Security Update Released


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8493
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1005 of 1311 (815679)
07-23-2017 3:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1004 by CRR
07-23-2017 1:51 AM


Re: Common Ancestry; assumption or conclusion?
CRR writes:

Today the idea of common ancestry is widespread and most children know it at least in some form before they go to school, so it is for them a prior assumption even if they are taught natural selection first.

And this obsession about what order things were worked out in is important to you because....?

However as Dredge says it probably makes little difference since both ideas are integral to the modern version of Darwin's theory.

Both ideas were integral to the original theory too, but again, so what? Why are you obsessing about the way common ancestry was derived?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1004 by CRR, posted 07-23-2017 1:51 AM CRR has taken no action

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8493
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 1009 of 1311 (815684)
07-23-2017 5:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1007 by Dredge
07-23-2017 4:59 AM


Re: Let's call this the Genesis 2:7 message
Dredge writes:

I've got better things to do than speculate the repercussions of absurd impossibilities.

So you're just avoiding thinking about it.

You're the equivalent to a pre-Darwin creationist - you'll be in for a big shock when molecular biologists create the first life form and you'll spend an enormous amount of energy denying it. Then you'll try to rationalise it. If you're lucky you won't live long enough to see it.

quote:
Scientists have announced that they have created living organisms using an expanded genetic code. That could in turn lead to the creation of entirely new lifeforms, using combinations of DNA that couldn't possible have existed before.

Two researchers created a bacterium that not only uses the four natural bases, but also uses a pair of synthetic ones known as X and Y. In doing so, the researchers say that they have been able to "lay the foundation for achieving the central goal of synthetic biology: the creation of new life forms and functions".


http://www.independent.co.uk/...synthetic-semi-a7544056.html

Even this first step is problematic for your beliefs. This is an entirely new lifeform - one that your mythical creator did not create.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1007 by Dredge, posted 07-23-2017 4:59 AM Dredge has taken no action

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8493
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1033 of 1311 (815743)
07-24-2017 2:19 AM
Reply to: Message 1032 by Dredge
07-24-2017 2:16 AM


Re: Let's call this the Genesis 2:7 message
Dredge writes:

ToE was invented and is sustained by a philosophical position - atheism.

Crap.

The error of evolution will persist as long as the error of atheism will.

More crap.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1032 by Dredge, posted 07-24-2017 2:16 AM Dredge has taken no action

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8493
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1060 of 1311 (815837)
07-25-2017 3:02 AM
Reply to: Message 1055 by CRR
07-24-2017 8:24 PM


Re: seven "assumptions"
It's not essential for the ToE that there is a single common ancestor.

Evolutionists would just say that there were at least two survivors from that initial origin of life. Creationists already believe in separate creation of different kinds.

Creationists don't know what they believe, you can't even tell me if elephants nd tapirs are different kinds or why pigs and cows must be different kinds.

Biologists are talking about common ancestors way down the evolutionary tree - billions of years ago - not in the top branches. Common ancestry is proven way below where creationists are required to put it and with billions of years difference. Don't pretend there's an equivalence.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1055 by CRR, posted 07-24-2017 8:24 PM CRR has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 1061 by Pressie, posted 07-25-2017 7:14 AM Tangle has taken no action

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8493
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 1077 of 1311 (815886)
07-26-2017 2:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1073 by Dredge
07-26-2017 1:54 AM


Re: seven "assumptions"
Dredge writes:


If creation be true, we would expect the fossil record to be characterised sudden appearance and stasis ...
"The history of most fossil species includes tow [sic] features particularly inconsistent with gradualism: 1. Stasis. Most species exhibit no directional change during their tenure on earth. They appear in the fossil record looking much the same as when they disappear; morphological change I [sic] usually limited and directionless. 2. Sudden appearance. In any local area, a species does not arise gradually by the steady transformation of its ancestors; it appears all at once and 'fully formed.'" (Gould, Stephen J. The Panda's Thumb, 1980, p. 181-182)

"Every paleontologist knows that most species don't change. That's bothersome....brings terrible distress. ....They may get a little bigger or bumpier but they remain the same species and that's not due to imperfection and gaps but stasis. And yet this remarkable stasis has generally been ignored as no data. If they don't change, its not evolution so you don't talk about it." S. J. Gould, Lecture at Hobart & William Smith College, 14/2/1980.

And still they dishonestly quote mine despite it being pointed out over and over that Gould was a confirmed 'evolutionist'.

quote:
Gould, in this article and many more over the next twenty years, consistently and extensively explained his position and the evidence for evolution, including transitional forms found in the fossil record. The constant abuse of the body of Gould's life's work in the face of this is not merely dishonest, it is despicable.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/quotes/mine/part3.html

Why not read the whole article so that you don't keep making the same mistake?

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1073 by Dredge, posted 07-26-2017 1:54 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1078 by Dredge, posted 07-26-2017 2:39 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 1090 by dwise1, posted 07-26-2017 3:00 PM Tangle has taken no action

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8493
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1079 of 1311 (815888)
07-26-2017 3:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1078 by Dredge
07-26-2017 2:39 AM


Re: seven "assumptions"
Dredge writes:

The whole story is, Gould clearly saw the evidence for creation, but as a committed atheist, he tried to explain it away with his stupid PE theory. Predictably, many other atheists accepted PE as sound "science" ... any tin-pot idea will do, as long as it isn't creationism!

Gould was what he said he was, an 'evolutionist'.

... Which reminds me of another committed atheist, Salvador Dali, who said, "I know from my study of science that there is a God ... but I don't believe it."

Now you quote a surrealist???


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1078 by Dredge, posted 07-26-2017 2:39 AM Dredge has taken no action

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8493
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1109 of 1311 (816027)
07-28-2017 3:17 AM
Reply to: Message 1108 by Dredge
07-28-2017 3:14 AM


It's more important that you retract your statement that evolution=atheism.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1108 by Dredge, posted 07-28-2017 3:14 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1110 by Dredge, posted 07-28-2017 3:37 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8493
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1111 of 1311 (816029)
07-28-2017 4:01 AM
Reply to: Message 1110 by Dredge
07-28-2017 3:37 AM


What a pile of shite.

Evolution is a branch of biology. It's a scientific area of study.

There are millions of Christians that happily accept both the bible and evolution. If evolution=atheism then there are millions of atheistic Christians.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1110 by Dredge, posted 07-28-2017 3:37 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1153 by Dredge, posted 07-31-2017 1:45 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8493
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1157 of 1311 (816176)
07-31-2017 2:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1153 by Dredge
07-31-2017 1:45 AM


Dredge writes:

This statement is at least an improvement on "Evolution is the unifying concept of biology" or "Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution."

It's not an improvement on anything it's just a statement of fact.

Even better would be to understand this: Evolution needs biology, but biology doesn't need evolution.

Biology and evolution don't need anything. All biology and evolution do is explain things in the natural world. Try not to embarrass yourself further.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1153 by Dredge, posted 07-31-2017 1:45 AM Dredge has taken no action

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8493
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1168 of 1311 (816274)
08-02-2017 6:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1166 by Dredge
08-02-2017 5:56 AM


Re: seven "assumptions"
Dredge writes:

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit demand honesty.

Yes it's a paradox isn't it?

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1166 by Dredge, posted 08-02-2017 5:56 AM Dredge has taken no action

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8493
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


(2)
Message 1233 of 1311 (816450)
08-04-2017 4:54 PM


Of course god could have written the bloody thing himself and avoided 3,000 years of conflict and confusion.

Why didn't he?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8493
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1250 of 1311 (816489)
08-05-2017 10:26 AM


.....and why did he use this preposterous method that was bound to go wrong and be disbelieved? Why not write them himself?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 1253 by Faith, posted 08-05-2017 10:47 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8493
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1256 of 1311 (816495)
08-05-2017 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 1253 by Faith
08-05-2017 10:47 AM


Re: this preposterous method
Faith writes:

Bound to go wrong?" That's ridiculous for starters. The Bible has been believed by millions for the last two millennia, and been the cause of great changes in society, even the foundation of western civilization itself out of barbarian Europe.

Even after 2,000 years it's disbelieved by billions more than believe. And those that believe in it don't believe the same things. Why make it this way? Why not write it yourself? How is it possible to that the word of god is not capable of being understood equally by all?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1253 by Faith, posted 08-05-2017 10:47 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1257 by Faith, posted 08-05-2017 11:22 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8493
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1258 of 1311 (816497)
08-05-2017 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1257 by Faith
08-05-2017 11:22 AM


Re: this preposterous method
Faith writes:

But lemme see, how might I try to answer this? According to your reasoning the truth is to be found in the greater numbers of those who disbelieve in the Bible?


It was your point Chuck, not mine.

"The Bible has been believed by millions for the last two millennia"

But one imagines that the point of it was to persuade? If so it's failed. Christianity is not even a majority belief. And in the developed world it's in decline.

There are many here who think they understand it but don't.

Exactly my point. Why bother leaving this vitally important story in the hands of fallible man? Why not write it himself?

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1257 by Faith, posted 08-05-2017 11:22 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1261 by Faith, posted 08-05-2017 11:48 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8493
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 1265 of 1311 (816510)
08-05-2017 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1261 by Faith
08-05-2017 11:48 AM


Re: this preposterous method
Faith writes:

It isn't exactly that the "point of it was to persuade" but that it is designed to persuade exactly those whom God wants to persuade, as Pascal's comment explains.

It is exactly that it's designed to persuade - it's god's marketing material. His PR sheep are supposed to market the 'good news.'

It isn't exactly that the "point of it was to persuade" but that it is designed to persuade exactly those whom God wants to persuade, as Pascal's comment explains.

Well that's convenient - if the bible doen't persuade me, then god didn't want to persuade me! What self-serving drivel.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1261 by Faith, posted 08-05-2017 11:48 AM Faith has taken no action

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.1
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2022